This is a parable:

When I was in college, there was a kid in my classes who everyone knew took the best notes. He always got the best grades and could answer any question about what was said in the class by looking into his notes.

Once I was not feeling well and could not get to class. I asked this guy if I could borrow his notebook to see what had happened in class that day. He said sure and dropped it off and said he would be back in the evening to pick it up.

When I opened it up, it looked very cryptic to me and i could not make out what had actually been said in the class that day.

when he stopped by later to pick up his notebook, i asked him what was up. I told him i could not understand how everyone thought he took the best notes based on my reading of the notebook. he looked puzzled and opened his notebook in front of me and gave the lecture to me from the notes.

one sentance was written down and each word in the sentance had a different number of lines underlining it. this he explained were the three different ways of looking at the first word based on the three lines under it. the second word had two different parts to it based on the two lines, etc.

when he was done he had recreated the entire lecture for me from his notebook.

What was the difference from his reading his notes and my reading his notes??

HE HAD HEARD THE LECTURE.

The Torah, written in Hebrew, dictated to Moses one letter at a time, protected for thousands of years to be accurate and exactly the same as every other Torah in the world, read each year over again, considered not valid if one letter is not correct, this Torah is the Notebook.

The Lecture is was given by Hashem to Moses. the notebook was given to ensure that the lecture could be derived from the notebook and the lecture was passed down from generation to generation orally and only recently written.

Each letter in the Torah is important. Every misspelling is there to teach something. every grammatical mistake is significant in understanding what is meant by the passage.

The real miracle is that the Torah does not look like the notebook, but looks like a stand alone book.

To really understand what is written in the Torah, one must study the notebook with someone who knows the lecture.

I like that explanation Torah Man!

That said, does a Torah purchased at the booklstore have the explanatory notes from which, for example, you explained Joseph marrying his niece or does that require matching up with other books.

I listened to a lecture where Abram was said to have been an idol maker in UR before encountering G-d and commanded to go to Haran. Where would I find those kind of supplementary anecdotal stories in the Jewish tradition supporting scripture?

Thanks - Tak

QUOTE (Takachi @ Dec 7 2002, 03:25 PM)

I like that explanation Torah Man! That said, does a Torah purchased at the booklstore have the explanatory notes from which, for example, you explained Joseph marrying his niece or does that require matching up with other books. I listened to a lecture where Abram was said to have been an idol maker in UR before encountering G-d and commanded to go to Haran. Where would I find those kind of supplementary anecdotal stories in the Jewish tradition supporting scripture? Thanks - Tak

Not every Torah has all of the explainations in one place.

Avraham's father was an idol maker. When Avraham was three, he recognized that there was a one G-d who ruled the universe. He took a hammer and smashed all of the idols in the shop and then put the hammer in the hand of the biggest idol in the shop. when his father came back, his father asked who had smashed the idols, and Avraham told him the big idol had done it. his father said that the big idol could not have done it because it was made of stone. Avraham then said that how could anyone worship an idol that was made of stone, etc.

There are many sources, but most of the depth is in Hebrew only books.

I realize, belatedly, that I did not give my normal disclaimer before starting all of these threads.

I am here to enlighten, not to criticize. I was pleased with the reception to my original Rabbi-like thread. I noticed an interest by Jews and non-Jews alike.

I have a responsibility to teach. Every human being has responsibility for their relationship with Hashem ('the name' or G-d). Many people do not know what their responsibility is. We all do not have the same requirements of service and that means not only within Judaism where men, women, priest, and kings all have different responsibilities, but also the non-Jews have different responsibilities than do the Jews.

I come to teach, not to criticize. I will not discuss my views on other religions but may on occasion give a source from within Torah that may enlighten.

I do not ever mean to offend. If you find yourself feeling offended, think how you brought that into the reading of my work. If you do not see your owning that feeling, then bring it up to me and we will discuss it.

thanks,

Dovid Yona

Others have asked me about getting into obviously heated conversations with people about the Torah, etc.

I try to only speak when I have listening from the person I am speaking to. Sometimes The listener is only preparing his words without hearing my words. Sometimes the listener is just pausing from a prepared rant and giving the appearance of listening.

Many people prefer to disempower the Torah (and all scripture) because they would be responsible for their actions if they for a moment believed it were true.

I will entertain all true questions from those seeking the truth.

Torah man, this is an honest question and not intended to incite, complain, or advocate, simply to understand.

The Torah is G-d's word given through Moses. In the Torah tradition (forgive me if I mispeak this, but I think you will know what I mean), there is the original work and then there is the extensive commentary from scholars, priests etc through the many centuries.

You have surprised me a number of times in asserting a thing that appears to be from commentary supplementing the original work. For example, that the Angel that wrestles with Jacob is the guardian angel of Esau, and I believe this was relevant to Jacob and Esau's reconciliation shortly thereafter. That would appear to be sourced from commentary, so when I go back to various OT translations of a Christian Bible I would naturally not find that connotation in Christian scripture. I am not arguing a particular interpretation of that passage, only to understand the basis.

What weight would a Torah scholar give to the original work versus (even ancient) commentary? Are they of equal weight with the original work or is there debate over issues such as that amongst current Torah scholars?

Thanks is advance, and again, I am not arguing a position, just to understand the premise.

QUOTE (Takachi @ Dec 18 2002, 12:46 AM)

What weight would a Torah scholar give to the original work versus (even ancient) commentary? Are they of equal weight with the original work or is there debate over issues such as that amongst current Torah scholars? Thanks is advance, and again, I am not arguing a position, just to understand the premise.

There are very strict rules of interpretation.

Any interpretation, found to be valid through formal challenges is then accepted provided it does not in any way contradict a previously established interpretation. This implies that older valid interpretations are considered closer to the truth and that older, previous generation, codifiers are also closer to the truth.

That said, in recent years, new Torah insights have been made known by the Lubavither Rebbe.

In the Talmud, much of the text appears to be the debate between the scholars of the time. Each scholar brings to the debate, his sources and a resolution is reached.

No interpretation has ever been accepted which contradicted a previously accepted interpretation. Newer insights will add depth to the understanding but can never take away. I can't emphasize that enough.

QUOTE (torah man @ Dec 19 2002, 09:13 PM)

In the Talmud, much of the text appears to be the debate between the scholars of the time.  Each scholar brings to the debate, his sources and a resolution is reached.

One of the most interesting things about Torah study is that a law once written down is frozen. This has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that one now has a manageable handbook of legal codes (Mishnah)-the presentation of Jewish faith and practice not bound by the passage of time.

The disadvantage is that there is a limit to modern Torah interpretation because of the points that Torah man has raised. In the last century a new method of reading Talmud has evolved. Unlike the rabbis of the past, contemporary scholars using the critical method look at the process by which the Talmud was written, edited, and transmitted; the outside culture against which it was written; its relationship to other law texts and try and arrive at a deeper understanding of the thought processes of the sages.

This approach is markedly different from a yeshiva where the standard Vilna edition of the Talmud, published between 1881 and 1886 is used unquestioningly.

There is still much objection to the critical method. How can one reconcile the belief that the Written Law was given to Moses with the belief that a passage of Mishnah may have been assembled from two different sources, thereby accounting for a discrepancy in wording?

Four points:

1/ A casual reading( even in depth study) of Talmud leaves too many questions unanswered- hence the use of the word "Teku"an acronym that means the a specific problem will be resolved only by the prophet Elijah. Even proponents of the critical method (modern Talmudic Scholars) find themselves murmuring this at the end of the day.

2/Judaism has always prized intellectual activity-study of sacred texts- as an end in itself, and never more so than in Talmud study

3/Don't study Talmud alone: It's too vast, and unless you are highly fluent in Mishnaici Hebrew and Aramaic, you are going to be working from translation(albeit some very good ones)

4/Get a teacher:

Rabbi Moshe Taragin "To learn Torah is to fully appreciate its quintessential infiniteness"

QUOTE (torah man @ Dec 8 2002, 12:28 PM)

I do not ever mean to offend.  If you find yourself feeling offended, think how you brought that into the reading of my work.  If you do not see your owning that feeling, then bring it up to me and we will discuss it.

One of the most famous stories in Jewish history concerns two brilliant scholars, Shammai (50 BCE - 30 CE) and Hillel (70 BCE - 10 CE).

This story points out the difference in temperment between them ( as well as underlying the importance of the "Golden Rule" in Judaism).

A non-Jew came to Shammai, who was a builder by trade, and said to him, "Teach me as much Torah as I can learn while standing on one foot." Shammai was annoyed by this frivolous (not to say insulting ) request and chased the man away with his measuring rod. The man then went to Hillel and made the same request. Hillel replied, " 'That which is hateful to you do not do onto others.' That is all the Torah, the rest is commentary. Now go and study the commentary.

wrecked him,

from where are you coming? you seem to have studied some, or at least studied about studying.

Torah Man

I was brought up in an Orthodox Jewish home. I keep drifting off and then coming back. I am drawn to Torah because it is part of my soul and upbringing but rebel against the sheer effort required to keep up the studying (laziness on my part). In my professional and personal life, I have very little contact with the Jewish community, which is incidentally almost non-existent where I live.


From time to time, I engage in periods of intensive self study (not following my own advice in having a mentor and learning partner). I'm like an Orthodox Jew with Attention Deficit Disorder.


Reading your thread jolted me a little. I had not expected to find this kind of commentary on a stock discussion board.

Hope that answers your question.

wrecked him,

i sent you a pm. i always set notification on for pm's, you may not have.