see the previous week for the concept of living with the times.

http://www.capitalstool.com/forums/index.p...act=ST&f=8&t=62

Vayigash (Va-yee-gosh) is the name of this weeks portion and comes from of the opening words of the portion meaning 'approched'.

Sunday: Yehudah (Judah) approaches Joseph to discuss with him exchanging himself with Binyamin. at first, he is threatening but then backs off and speaks softly.

Jacobs and his sons were know for having exceptional strength and when Yehudah stamped his foot to threaten Joseph, Joseph had his son, who was posing has he head man and translator, kick a pillar in the house, causing the whole house to shake. This startled Yehudah so he changed to a gentler tack.

Yehudah challenges Joseph for asking so many questions about their family, typically only done if one was going to marry into the family. Yehudah explains to Joseph how important Binyamin is to their father and why he has come forward because Yehudah pledged to his father that Binyamin would return to Yaakov.

This is all leading to the moment of reckoning where Joseph will see that they regret abandoning him and will not abandon Binyamin. This is why Joseph as acted towards them, to determine where they are holding.

I was in Borders Saturday and was perusing a copy of the Talmud and looking through a Torah just to see the margin notes. I teach an adult Bible class and consider myself fairly grounded in the OT.

I saw a reference to Josephs actions not being so honorable and, in fact, quite shameful with respect to his father Jacob. Was Joseph within his rights to judge the circumstance and act in this way or was he out of line to "play" the brothers and the father in this manner?

QUOTE (Takachi @ Dec 9 2002, 12:48 AM)

I saw a reference to Josephs actions not being so honorable and, in fact, quite shameful with respect to his father Jacob. Was Joseph within his rights to judge the circumstance and act in this way or was he out of line to "play" the brothers and the father in this manner?

directly the opposite. Joseph had to be sure that his brothers still did not hold anything against him. the last time he had seen them, they had wanted to kill him and he wanted to make sure that they had done teshuva (repentance). the test that he arranged proved them to be true.

also, the time Joseph was away from Yaakov (Jacob) was to pay back Yaakov for deglecting his father Yitzhok (Isaac) while he was away. Yaakov, while on the way to Haran to find a wife, stopped and learned in Yeshiva (school) for 14 years.

Monday: Yehuda continues by saying that Yaakov would die if Binyamin does not return with the brothers so please let Yehuda stay in his place.

Yosef (Joseph) could not take it any more and was convinced of his brother's true feelings. He sent all of the Egyptians out of the room so as not to embarass his brothers. Yosef told his brothers, "I am Yosef. Is my father still alive?" The brothers were startled because of embarassment so Yosef tried again. This time he softly said, "Please come closer to me," etc. It says that he showed them that he too was circumcised and then they believed him. The brothers did not recognize him because when he had left them, he did not have a beard and now he had a full beard.

He told his brothers not to feel bad because Hashem (G-d) had sent him to Egypt to be able to take care of his family during the famine.

QUOTE (torah man @ Dec 9 2002, 05:53 PM)

also, the time Joseph was away from Yaakov (Jacob) was to pay back Yaakov for deglecting his father Yitzhok (Isaac) while he was away.  Yaakov, while on the way to Haran to find a wife, stopped and learned in Yeshiva (school) for 14 years.

I understand the "payback" conceptually but is the spending 14 years in Yeshiva also a commmentary item (as opposed to textual) in the Torah. My OT understanding is the 14 years were spent working for Laban to earn the right to marry Rachel and Leah. He also had the dream at Bethel. I am curious at the meaning because, despite having been chosen by G-d to be the carrier of the Promise/Covenant, Jacob is really a pretty rotten guy, until he wrestles with the Angel of G-d (or G-d himself) resulting in the impaired hip joint and is given the name Israel.

Incidentally I would be extremely interested in your rendering of the oldest meanings of the name "Israel". I have seen mostly references to "a prince of G-d among men" and "one who has contended with G-d" but the one I favor is "one who has contended with G-d and come under His foot." I would be blessed to understand your thinking on this as it relates to other concepts i have at times pursued. Thanks in advance!

I love this stuff and hope I'm not pestering you.

QUOTE (Takachi @ Dec 10 2002, 01:19 AM)

QUOTE (torah man @ Dec 9 2002, 05:53 PM) also, the time Joseph was away from Yaakov (Jacob) was to pay back Yaakov for deglecting his father Yitzhok (Isaac) while he was away.  Yaakov, while on the way to Haran to find a wife, stopped and learned in Yeshiva (school) for 14 years. I understand the "payback" conceptually but is the spending 14 years in Yeshiva also a commmentary item (as opposed to textual) in the Torah. My OT understanding is the 14 years were spent working for Laban to earn the right to marry Rachel and Leah. He also had the dream at Bethel. I am curious at the meaning because, despite having been chosen by G-d to be the carrier of the Promise/Covenant, Jacob is really a pretty rotten guy, until he wrestles with the Angel of G-d (or G-d himself) resulting in the impaired hip joint and is given the name Israel. Incidentally I would be extremely interested in your rendering of the oldest meanings of the name "Israel". I have seen mostly references to "a prince of G-d among men" and "one who has contended with G-d" but the one I favor is "one who has contended with G-d and come under His foot." I would be blessed to understand your thinking on this as it relates to other concepts i have at times pursued. Thanks in advance! I love this stuff and hope I'm not pestering you.

full answer coming, need time to gather the text.

I need to know where you get the idea that Yaakov was a 'pretty rotten guy'?

I have to clear that up before I can answer the other stuff.

His name is schemer/deceiver and he is characterized as a "man of the tents" which I take to be a politician and a mama's boy.

He deceives his brother Esau into trading his birthright for stew

He conspires with his mother to steal the patriarchal blessing from his father Isaac

He deals with Laban on less than squeeky clean intent in the separating of the good livestock and bad

He skips town on Laban w/o so much as an adios

Facing his brother who is coming with force to meet him with unknown intent, Jacob sends gifts in wave after wave believing he can run if Esau has bad intent. He even sends Leah & her child ahead and then his beloved Rachel w/ Joseph all in the name of preserving his own skin.

Then he retreats back across the river and "Jacob was alone." This is the point at which Jacob the "schemer/deceiver" meets G-d and his human schemes are disabled (in the wrestling and crippling) and he comes to rely on the author of the promise rather than schemes to achieve the promise.

Quick inartful summary of why, until this point Jacob is less than what G-d fully intends him to be as the carrier of promise. I have used this story to illustrate how G-d uses circumstance to manuever us into that "and Jacob was alone" posture so that he can deal with us.

QUOTE (Takachi @ Dec 10 2002, 01:19 AM)

QUOTE (torah man @ Dec 9 2002, 05:53 PM) also, the time Joseph was away from Yaakov (Jacob) was to pay back Yaakov for deglecting his father Yitzhok (Isaac) while he was away.  Yaakov, while on the way to Haran to find a wife, stopped and learned in Yeshiva (school) for 14 years. I understand the "payback" conceptually but is the spending 14 years in Yeshiva also a commmentary item (as opposed to textual) in the Torah. My OT understanding is the 14 years were spent working for Laban to earn the right to marry Rachel and Leah. ...

I will try to deal with your points one at a time.

Firstly, where was Yaakov and when.

from the Rashi on chapter 35:29

29. And Isaac expired. There is no order of earlier and later events (chronological order) in the [narrative of] Torah. The selling of Joseph [actually] preceded Isaac’s demise by 12 years, for when Jacob was born, Isaac was 60 years old, and Isaac died in Jacob’s 120th year, for it is stated: “and Isaac was sixty years old” (Gen. 25:26)-if you subtract 60 from 180 [Isaac’s age at his death], you have 120 left. Joseph was 17 years old when he was sold, and that year was Jacob’s 108th year. How so? He was blessed at the age of 63 [as Rashi explains Gen. 28: 9], for 14 years he hid in the academy of Eber, totaling 77. He worked 14 years for a wife, and at the end of the 14 years, Joseph was born, as it is said: “Now it came to pass when Rachel had borne Joseph, etc.” (Gen. 30:25). The total is 91. [Add to this] the 17 [years] until Joseph was sold, and it totals 108. (Moreover, it is explicit that from when Joseph was sold until Jacob came to Egypt, 22 years had passed, as it is said: “And Joseph was thirty years old, etc.” (Gen. 41:46), and the seven years of plenty and two years of [the] famine [had elapsed before Jacob’s arrival.] This totals 22. And it is written:“The days of the years of my sojournings are one hundred thirty years” (Gen. 47:9). [Since Jacob arrived in Egypt at age 130, 22 years after Joseph had been sold,] it follows that Jacob was 108 when he (Joseph) was sold.) [from Seder Olam, ch. 2]

Also upon further research, Yaakov was not punished for the time of learning in the yeshiva but only the 22 years he was with Lavan.

Rashi from chapter 28:9

This also teaches us that Jacob was sixty-three years old at that time, for Ishmael was seventy-four years old when Jacob was born. Ishmael was fourteen years older than Isaac, and Isaac was sixty years old when they were born, hence [Ishmael was] seventy-four. He lived one hundred and thirty seven years, as it is stated (above 25:17): “and these are the years of the life of Ishmael,” etc. Consequently, Jacob was sixty-three at Ishmael’s death. We learn from here that he hid for fourteen years in the house of Eber and afterwards went to Haran. [This can be deduced from the fact that] he stayed in Laban’s house before Joseph’s birth only fourteen years, as it is said (below 31:41): “I worked for you fourteen years for your two daughters and six years for your sheep,” and the payment for the sheep took place after Joseph was born, as it is said (below 30:25): “And it came to pass when Rachel had given birth to Joseph, etc.,” and Joseph was thirty years old when he became ruler, and from then until Jacob descended to Egypt were nine years: seven of plenty and two of famine. And Jacob said to Pharaoh (below 47:9): “The days of the years of my sojournings are one hundred and thirty years.” Go forth and figure 14 years before Joseph was born, plus the 30 years of Joseph’s age, plus the 9 years from the time he became ruler until Jacob came. The total is 53. And when he [Jacob] left his father, he was 63, totaling 116. Yet he said [to Pharaoh, “I am] one hundred and thirty years old.” Hence, there are fourteen years missing. Thus, you learn that after he had received the blessings, he hid in the house of Eber for fourteen years. [From Meg. 17:1] (However, he was not punished [for these fourteen years] because of the merit [of having studied] Torah, for Joseph was separated from his father only twenty-two years, i.e., from age seventeen until age thirty-nine, corresponding to the twenty-two years that Jacob was separated from his father [when] he did not honor him. These are the twenty years in Laban’s house, plus the two years that he spent traveling [home], as it is written (below 33:17): “And he built himself a house, and for his cattle he made booths.” Our Rabbis of Blessed Memory inferred from this verse that he spent eighteen months on the road, for the house was for the rainy season, and the booths were for the summer. And, according to the calculation of the verses, which we calculated above, from the time he left his father until he went down to Egypt, at the age of one hundred and thirty, we find an additional fourteen years, therefore, it is certain that he hid in the house of Eber to learn Torah while on his way to the house of Laban. And because of the merit of the Torah, he was not punished for them [those fourteen years], and Joseph was separated from him for only twenty-two years-measure for measure. The above is from an old Rashi text).

I knew he was punished for the time away from Yitzhok, but I forgot about the time learning not counting. So much to know.

QUOTE (Takachi @ Dec 10 2002, 09:32 AM)

His name is schemer/deceiver and he is characterized as a "man of the tents" which I take to be a politician and a mama's boy. He deceives his brother Esau into trading his birthright for stew He conspires with his mother to steal the patriarchal blessing from his father Isaac He deals with Laban on less than squeeky clean intent in the separating of the good livestock and bad He skips town on Laban w/o so much as an adios Facing his brother who is coming with force to meet him with unknown intent, Jacob sends gifts in wave after wave believing he can run if Esau has bad intent. He even sends Leah & her child ahead and then his beloved Rachel w/ Joseph all in the name of preserving his own skin. Then he retreats back across the river and "Jacob was alone." This is the point at which Jacob the "schemer/deceiver" meets G-d and his human schemes are disabled (in the wrestling and crippling) and he comes to rely on the author of the promise rather than schemes to achieve the promise. Quick inartful summary of why, until this point Jacob is less than what G-d fully intends him to be as the carrier of promise. I have used this story to illustrate how G-d uses circumstance to manuever us into that "and Jacob was alone" posture so that he can deal with us.

the original root of Yaakov was heel because he came out of the womb holding onto Esau's heel. from the rashi: 26. Esau’s heel. [This is] a sign that this one (Esau) will not manage to complete his reign until this one rises up and takes it from him. — [From Gen. Rabbah 63:9] and he named him Jacob. The Holy One, blessed be He [gave him this name]. (He said, “You named your firstborn [i.e. this refers to those who named Esau (verse 25)]. I too will name My firstborn.” This is what is written:“and He named him Jacob”) (Mid. Tanchuma Shemoth 4). Another explanation: His father called him Jacob (יַעִקֹב) because of the holding of the heel (הֶעָקֵב) (Yerushalmi Ber. 1:6).

man of the tents refers to learning torah. later this is used in reference to the tribe of Issachar.

he knows that Esau will not honor the responsibilities of the first born as tending the sacrifices and when he describes this to Esau, Esau willingly parts with it because he can be punished with death for doing the sacrifices wrongly. from the rashi:32. Esau replied, “Behold, I am going to die”. (The birthright is something unstable, for the [sacrificial] service will not always be the function of the firstborn, for the tribe of Levi will take it. Furthermore,) said Esau [to Jacob], “What is the nature of this service?” He replied, “There are many prohibitions and punishments and death penalties involved with it, as we learned (Sanh. 83a): ‘These are the ones who are liable to death: Those [performing the Temple service] who have imbibed wine and those who have not cut their hair.’” He (Esau) said,“Behold, I am going to die because of it (i.e., the birthright); if so, why should I want it?”

he already had the birthright from Esau and therefore should have received the blessing. Yitzhok realized this from Esau's comments. from the rashi:36. And he said,“Is it for this reason that he was named Jacob. הִכִי is an expression denoting the interrogative, as in (below 29:15):”Is it because (הִכִי) you are my kinsman…?“ Was he named Jacob (יַעִקֹב) because of the future, because he was destined to deceive me (לְעָקְבֵנִי) ? Midrash Tanchuma (Buber, Toledoth 23) [asks]: Why did Isaac shudder? He said, ”Perhaps I am guilty of an iniquity, for I have blessed the younger son before the older one, and thus altered the order of the relationship.“ [Thereupon], Esau started crying, ”He has already deceived me twice!“ His father said to him, ”What did he do to you?“ He replied, ”He took my birthright.“ He [Isaac] said,”That is why I was troubled and shuddered, for [I was afraid that] perhaps I [had] transgressed the line of strict justice, [but] now [that I know that] I actually blessed the firstborn, ‘he too shall be blessed’."

Lavan actually had hardly any sheep when Yaakov showed up. Lavan also changed the conditions of the deal many times. he never paid Yaakov for the work he had done and also deceived him greatly over the marriage of Rochal.

God told Yaakov to leave.

In verse 33:3, it says that He went ahead of them and bowed to his brother. He was in front of his family.

He actually wrestled with Esau's guardian angel and won and that is why Esau treated him with respect.

This entire list falls apart with the proper understanding of the text.

The Torah can not be understood without learning it from the original teachings in the original language. as mentioned in the what is the torah thread here.

Tuesday, Yosef continues to explain to his brothers that they did not send him to Egypt but Hashem did so he could take care of the family. He hurrys them to return and bring the whole family back to Egypt so they can be taken care of because he supposes that there are still five more years of famine left.

Pharaoh hears of the incident and concurs with Yosef and has them bring back Yaakov.

Thank you Torah man, I am in awe of the breadth of your knowledge.

Thank you Torah man, I am in awe of the breadth of your knowledge.

wednesday, the fourth day of the week.

this one is short so we will quote it with one of the important Rashi's.

QUOTE

Chapter 45 28. And Israel said, "Enough! My son Joseph is still alive. I will go and see him before I die." Chapter 46 1. And Israel and all that was his set out and came to Beer sheba, and he slaughtered sacrifices to the God of his father Isaac. 2. And God said to Israel in visions of the night, and He said, "Jacob, Jacob!" And he said, "Here I am." 3. And He said, "I am God, the God of your father. Do not be afraid of going down to Egypt, for there I will make you into a great nation. 4. I will go down with you to Egypt, and I will also bring you up, and Joseph will place his hand on your eyes. 5. And Jacob arose from Beer sheba, and the sons of Israel carried their father Jacob and their young children and their wives, in the wagons Pharaoh had sent to carry him. 6. And they took their livestock and their possessions that they had acquired in the land of Canaan, and they came to Egypt, Jacob and all his descendants with him. 7. His sons and his sons' sons with him, his daughters and his sons' daughters and all his descendants he brought with him to Egypt.

on verse 6, Rashi says:

QUOTE

6.  that they had acquired in the land of Canaan. But of what he had acquired in Padan-Aram he gave everything to Esau [in payment] for his share in the Cave of Machpelah. He said, “Possessions [acquired] outside the Land (of Israel) are inappropriate for me.” This is the meaning of“which I acquired for myself with heaps (כָּרִיתִי)” (Gen. 50:5). He placed before him stacks of gold and silver like a heap [of grain] (כְּרִי) and said to him,“Take these.” [from Tanchuma Buber, Vayishlach 11]

again, just pointing out the depth of the real message.

torah man,

In 46:2, God appeared to Israel, but called him Jacob. In 32:28, And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;.

Why does God revert back to 'Jacob', after decreeing that the name shall no longer be called Jacob ?

QUOTE (sheet4brain @ Dec 11 2002, 10:34 PM)

torah man, In 46:2, God appeared to Israel, but called him Jacob. In 32:28, And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;. Why does God revert back to 'Jacob', after decreeing that the name shall no longer be called Jacob ?

When Avraham had his name changed it was a transformation to a new essense never to return to the old one.

Yisroel (Israel) is the name given to Yaakov representing the connection to Hashem as the Head. This is the spiritual component of Yaakov while the name Yaakov (heel) represent the connection to the physical world.

This renaming was an additional component of Yaakov and not a replacement component. He did not cease being Yaakov, He was additionally called Yisroel.

the simple meaning:

the verse:

QUOTE

29. And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."

remember, this angel is Esau's guardian angel

rashi says:

QUOTE

29.  no… Jacob. It shall no longer be said that the blessings came to you through trickery (עָקְבָה) and deceit, but with nobility and openness, and ultimately, the Holy One, blessed be He, will reveal Himself to you in Beth-el and change your name, and there He will bless you, and I will be there.“ He then acknowledged them (the blessings) as being his (Jacob’s).

Thanks torah man! That was a very interesting insight into Yaakov/Yisroel. Much more satisfying than the cursory explanation given by my Sunday School teacher many moons ago.

thursday, the fifth day of the week. (Genesis 46:8-27)

here we name and count the family members of Yaakov who came down to Egypt.

A most important reference in verse 27:

QUOTE

27. And Joseph's sons, who were born to him in Egypt, two souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came to Egypt were seventy

The 'coming' in verse 26 compared to the 'came' in verse 27 is explained in the Rashi:

QUOTE

26.  All the souls coming…with Jacob. Who left the land of Canaan to come to Egypt. Now this [word] הַבָּאָה is not the past tense but the present tense, similar to“In the evening she would come (בָאָה)” (Esther 2:14), and like“and behold, his daughter Rachel is coming (בָּאָה) with the sheep” (Gen. 29:6). Therefore, its accent is below (i.e., at the end of the word), on the“aleph,” because when they left to come from the land of Canaan, they were only 66 [excluding Jochebed, Joseph, and his two sons]. The second [instance of הַבָּאָה, however,]“all the souls of the house of Jacob who came (הַבָּאָה) to Egypt were seventy,” is in the past tense; therefore, its accent is above (i.e., on an earlier syllable), on the“beth,” because when they came there they were seventy, for there they found Joseph and his two sons, and Jochebed was added to them between the walls.

another place where the hebrew text means something different than the translation is explained by Rashi:

QUOTE

I found in Leviticus Rabbah (4:6): Esau had sixteen souls [in his family], and the text calls them נַפְשׁוֹת בֵּיתוֹ,“the souls of his household” (Gen. 36:6) in the plural, because they worshipped many gods [in his family, each his or her own deity]. Jacob had seventy (souls), but the text calls them נֶפֶשׁ [in the singular] because they [all] worshiped one God

to explain the reference to Jochebed was born in the gate to Egypt, neither in Egypt or out.

friday: (sorry it is late, sundown comes very early this time of year)

Yaakov sent Yehudah ahead of him to Yosef to be shown where Goshen was. Yehudah's job was to set up yeshivas there.

Yosef and Yaakov finally meet. Then Yosef says that he is going to Pharaoh tot tell him about his father and brothers. He instructs the brothers to say they are sheppards so Pharaoh will not use them in the army. Egyptians hate sheppards.

Yosef takes five of his brothers and his father to see Pharaoh. Yaakov meets Pharaoh and bless him. This blessing and the coming of Yaakov to Egypt, ends the famine, but we do not know that yet.

shabbos (saturday)

todays portion is very important to us. verse 13 returns to the narration of the famine and how Yosef (the gubmit) took control of everything. does this look familiar???

I will quote

QUOTE

13. Now there was no food in the entire land, for the famine had grown exceedingly severe, and the land of Egypt and the land of Canaan were exhausted because of the famine. 14. And Joseph collected all the money that was found in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan with the grain that they were buying, and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house. 15. Now the money was depleted from the land of Egypt and from the land of Canaan, and all the Egyptians came to Joseph, saying, "Give us food; why should we die in your presence, since the money has been used up?" 16. And Joseph said, "Give [me] your livestock, and I will give you [food in return] for your livestock, if the money has been used up." 17. So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and Joseph gave them food [in return] for the horses and for the livestock in flocks and in cattle and in donkeys, and he provided them with food [in return] for all their livestock in that year. 18. That year ended, and they came to him in the second year, and they said to him, "We will not hide from my lord, for insofar as the money and the property in animals have been forfeited to my lord, nothing remains before my lord, except our bodies and our farmland. 19. Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our farmland? Buy us and our farmland for food, so that we and our farmland will be slaves to Pharaoh, and give [us] seed, so that we live and not die, and the soil will not lie fallow." 20. So Joseph bought all the farmland of the Egyptians for Pharaoh, for the Egyptians sold, each one his field, for the famine had become too strong for them, and the land became Pharaoh's. 21. And he transferred the populace to the cities, from [one] end of the boundary of Egypt to its [other] end. 22. Only the farmland of the priests he did not buy, for the priests had an allotment from Pharaoh, and they ate their allotment that Pharaoh had given them; therefore, they did not sell their farmland. 23. Joseph said to the people, "Behold, I have bought you and your farmland today for Pharaoh. Behold, you have seed, so sow the soil. 24. And it shall be concerning the crops, that you shall give a fifth to Pharaoh, and the [remaining] four parts shall be yours: for seed for [your] field[s], for your food, for those in your houses, and for your young children to eat." 25. They replied, "You have saved our lives! Let us find favor in my lord's eyes, and we will be slaves to Pharaoh." 26. So Joseph made it a statute to this day concerning the farmland of Egypt for the one fifth. Only the farmland of the priests alone did not become Pharaoh's.

notice first they lose their animals, then their land, then they get moved around (sounds like a recently signed presidential order to me), and then they have to work the land and the gubmit gets its 20%. the people are grateful for that.

Rashi on verse 19 explains the end of the famine:

QUOTE

19.  and give [us] seed-. [with which] to sow the soil. Although Joseph said,“and [for] another five years there will be neither plowing nor harvest” (Gen. 45:6), as soon as Jacob came to Egypt, blessing came with his arrival, and they started to sow, and the famine ended. So we learned in the Tosefta of Sotah (10:1-3). will not lie fallow. Heb. לֹא תֵּשָׁם, will not be desolate, [and Onkelos renders:] לָא תְבוּר, an expression denoting a fallow field (שָׂדֶה בוּר), which is not plowed.

have a great weekend.

Proverbs 11:26,

The people will curse him who withholds grain,
But blessing will be on the head of him who sells it.

One would think Joseph should have given away for free the 20% he took before the famine, but doing that doesn't create huge wealth for the Pharaoh. Selling the grain, which he took from the people in the first place, enabled him to own everything (on behalf of the Pharaoh, of course). Maybe we should have a Joseph-like figure for Fed chairman.

QUOTE (sheet4brain @ Dec 15 2002, 12:05 AM)

Proverbs 11:26, The people will curse him who withholds grain, But blessing will be on the head of him who sells it. One would think Joseph should have given away for free the 20% he took before the famine, but doing that doesn't create huge wealth for the Pharaoh. Selling the grain, which he took from the people in the first place, enabled him to own everything (on behalf of the Pharaoh, of course). Maybe we should have a Joseph-like figure for Fed chairman.

Yosef did not start getting his 20% till after the famine ended in year three.

The other people who stored grain had theirs rot and spoil. Only the grain that Yosef gathered, probably paid for (with Pharaoh's money), did not rot. A secret given is that if you place some dirt from where the grain was grown with the grain, it will not spoil.

QUOTE (torah man @ Dec 15 2002, 01:12 PM)

Yosef did not start getting his 20% till after the famine ended in year three.

Again, I beg to differ, tm. In Genesis 41:34,

...let him appoint officers over the land, to collect one-fifth of the produce of the land of Egypt in the seven plentiful years.

The NKJV uses collect which leads me to think that it is part of taxes (not specially bought) during the 7 plentiful years. Please share your insights on this.

QUOTE (sheet4brain @ Dec 15 2002, 07:26 PM)

QUOTE (torah man @ Dec 15 2002, 01:12 PM) Yosef did not start getting his 20% till after the famine ended in year three. Again, I beg to differ, tm. In Genesis 41:34, ...let him appoint officers over the land, to collect one-fifth of the produce of the land of Egypt in the seven plentiful years. The NKJV uses collect which leads me to think that it is part of taxes (not specially bought) during the 7 plentiful years. Please share your insights on this.

I have to say the the translation of the verse using the words one-fifth etc. is creative translation from the future verses into the past.

The most literal translation of the verse:

QUOTE

Let them gather in all the food during these good years that are coming and let them store up grain under the hand (jurisdiction) of Pharaoh.  Let the food be kept in their cities and let them safeguard it..

As you can see, there is not amount or percentage given in the verse. Yours is a free translation using the future terms as the past terms of gathering.

I have to dig deeper in the texts to see under what terms it was gathered.