'The wrong war at the wrong time,' former Mideast envoy maintains

QUOTE

America may be on the threshold of military victory in Iraq, but that hasn't changed Anthony Zinni's feelings against the war. "This is in fact the wrong war at the wrong time," the retired Marine general said Thursday night at Canisius College. Zinni was head of Central Command until Gen. Tommy Franks took over nearly three years ago. Zinni had served as President Bush's peace envoy to the Middle East until this month, when he spoke out against the war. "I had grave reservations about this whole undertaking and expressed those," Zinni said. "That's one reason why I'm no longer the Middle East envoy. ..... The biggest mistake the United States made in the war, Zinni said, was speaking of "shock and awe." "That was a way to say: "Your fate is inevitable. We're going to crush you. The might of America will defeat you. Just surrender and throw down your arms.'

I just read this piece a while ago. I am impressed. This man now belongs to a small group of integrity comprised of former officialdom.

Now, here is something frightening, and didn't you know this sort of thing was destined to happen----

*It could only happen with an American invasion. Poised behind the troops, waiting for a signal that Iraq is safe enough for them to operate in, are the evangelical Christians - carrying food in one hand and the Bible in the other. *

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?s...9&mode=&order=0

What a deal, it's bonus time. Not only do they get a new government, but a new religion to boot. No doubt they'll soon be demanding hot dogs and apple pie.

Actually, there are already some small number of Christians in Iraq.
For some reason, there is constant denigration of those who actively practice the Christian religion(which does not really fit me descriptively) on this board. While Christianity has had it's share of bloody abuses in history, the past few centuries, and especially the past 50 years, have seen a overwhelming leader in religious fanaticism and violence-Islam. Taking the word of a functionary at CAIR on interfaith relations would be similar to taking the word of Torquemada(?) on the same centuries back.This is all a piece of the decline and fall of Western civilization and culture that we are slowly moving through- many within the West are constantly denigrating and apologizing for their culture and history, while venerating those that have not matched it and seek to attack and overwhelm it.
It is not that the West has never had failings or things to apologize for-it is that the relative development of humanity under it has in aggregate been tremendous. The dominant religion, Christianity(along with Judaism, which exists predominantly in the West) deserves some credit in that relative development. And, yes, any real believer in a religion does see it as the superior path to God and spiritual fulfillment and will share that belief with others- not the same as killing or forced conversion of 'infidels'(once again, the prominent exception in modern times is you-know-who).
The West, particularly in Europe, is trying to live with no religion, or history, at all;much of the Islamic world is trying to live solely by those factors.

There is 100% religious freedom in Iraq

USA Today
December 24, 2002
BAGHDAD, Iraq — More than 100 Christians and peace activists gathered at a Catholic church in Iraq's capital for Christmas Eve Mass Tuesday, offering special prayers that war can be avoided.

"We're here to pray and sing for peace," said Elias Amidon, 58, a professor of environmental studies from Colorado. "The world has many diplomatic and nonviolent means to solve its differences."

With fears building that America will wage war on Iraq, Amidon and other members of the U.S. and British-based Iraq Peace Team have traveled to Baghdad to call for a peaceful solution to the crisis and the lifting of harsh economic sanctions imposed on Iraq since the 1991 Gulf War.

Officials at tiny St. Rafael's Catholic Church, where about 120 people attended the service, said the Christian community in Iraq tries its best to celebrate Christmas.

Iraqi children shared their fears of war.

"Of course I'm afraid, but I'll pray for peace," 12-year-old Iraqi girl Zeina Shamuel told The Associated Press as worshippers sang: "The people living in the night, will see the long awaited light."

Christians represent about 5% of Iraq's 22 million population and live mainly in Baghdad and the north. Iraq is predominantly Muslim and officially secular.

In a televised Christmas Eve message, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein said his country was ready to fight a holy war against the United States.

Saddam said the world was entering a new year "under unique circumstances ... which have been manufactured by the forces of evil and darkness in order to create a situation of instability, chaos and tension."

The Iraqi leader used his address, read out by a television announcer, to again reject U.S. and British claims that his regime possesses weapons of mass destruction.

Saddam also said his regime wanted to cooperate with U.N. weapons inspectors conducting almost daily searches in Iraq to verify Baghdad no longer possesses chemical, biological or nuclear arms.

"We are confident that the outcome of the (U.N.) inspection operations will be a big shock to the United States and will expose all the American lies," Saddam's statement said.

War, Whatever
Bush Aide: Inspections Or Not, We'll Attack Iraq
Exclusive By Paul Gilfeather, Whitehall Editor
Daily Mirror UK

Friday, 22 November, 2002

George Bush's top security adviser last night admitted the US would attack Iraq even if UN inspectors fail to find weapons.

Dr Richard Perle stunned MPs by insisting a "clean bill of health" from UN chief weapons inspector Hans Blix would not halt America's war machine.

Evidence from ONE witness on Saddam Hussein's weapons programme will be enough to trigger a fresh military onslaught, he told an all- party meeting on global security.

Former defence minister and Labour backbencher Peter Kilfoyle said: "America is duping the world into believing it supports these inspections. President Bush intends to go to war even if inspectors find nothing.

"This make a mockery of the whole process and exposes America's real determination to bomb Iraq."

Dr Perle told MPs: "I cannot see how Hans Blix can state more than he can know. All he can know is the results of his own investigations. And that does not prove Saddam does not have weapons of mass destruction."

The chairman of America's defence policy board said: "Suppose we are able to find someone who has been involved in the development of weapons and he says there are stores of nerve agents. But you cannot find them because they are so well hidden.

"Do you actually have to take possession of the nerve agents to convince? We are not dealing with a situation where you can expect co-operation."

Mr Kilfoyle said MPs would be horrified at the admission. He added: "Because Saddam is so hated in Iraq, it would be easy to find someone to say they witnessed weapons building.

"Perle says the Americans would be satisfied with such claims even if no real evidence was produced.

"That's a terrifying prospect."

-Little did those stupid filthy Christian children know that Dr Richard Perle spits on their prayers...

It should be remembered that Islam was, originally, built on a a foundation of lightning, irresistible conquest - warfare/blood/by the sword. Christendom itself hung in the balance in two great battles, one in France and the other, Italy - the sacred/religious equivalent of the secular German tribes uniting enough to permit the stopping the advance of the Roman legions with the destruction of Varus in the Black Forest. Europe would, in either case, have been irrevocably changed. (Oh, yes, there was, too, that minor matter of the Turks at the gates of Vienna.)

It may have taken a millenium and a half for the pendulum to swing back in the other direction by using the same methods, but it looks as though that is what is happening - to a quite limited degree so far.

Christians are fantasizing if they think they can convert large portions of Islam in that part of the world. It will take centuries for them to make any headway. In fact, the opposite is happening. Were "democracy" permitted to operate unfettered in Saudi Arabi, Jordan, and Egypt, radical fundamentalist Islamic elements would call the "shots". Pardon the use of the word in the present context.

"wrong war at the wrong time" I guess it's late to be speaking out, but that's putting a massive glob of krispy kreme sugar on it. This war is crime against humanity and a dangerous example for other nations. If war is seen by the world's leaders as an acceptable solution to minor problems we are all doomed. It is important that the critics of this war are not silenced. I pray to god that the bloodshed ends in Iraq without drawing in other countries and I am an atheist.

People only learn by example. Crusades have the opposite of their intended effect.
I grew up with mostly Jewish friends then spent two years in a “non denominational” (Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazarene) high school and then two years in a catholic high school.
No one hates more or is more closed minded then the religious right. I hated it at the time but now give thanks that I was thrust into the middle of a group of far right “Christians” so that I could see how they worked from behind the seines. A few are real and a few seek love and truth. But the vast majority is energetically practicing the opposite of Christ’s example.
The Christian right has become the antichrist. Were Christ here, I think he would turn the moral majorities tables over on top of them and I think the Christian right would crucify him.
This should probably be placed on theostoology but the Religious Right has made it their goal to run politics through religion.

QUOTE (ShamPoo @ Apr 5 2003, 11:23 AM)

People only learn by example. Crusades have the opposite of their intended effect. I grew up with mostly Jewish friends then spent two years in a “non denominational” (Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazarene) high school and then two years in a catholic high school. No one hates more or is more closed minded then the religious right. I hated it at the time but now give thanks that I was thrust into the middle of a group of far right “Christians” so that I could see how they worked from behind the seines. A few are real and a few seek love and truth. But the vast majority is energetically practicing the opposite of Christ’s example. The Christian right has become the antichrist. Were Christ here, I think he would turn the moral majorities tables over on top of them and I think the Christian right would crucify him. This should probably be placed on theostoology but the Religious Right has made it their goal to run politics through religion.

Relgious fanatics, be they Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, are a plague upon humanity.

The idea that some close-minded individual is privy to the thoughts, intentions, and actions of an Entity that could have created something as vast, subtle, and complex as our Universe must be the height of human conceit.



Come to think of it, religion is a plague upon humanity.

Let's not turn this into a theological thread. There is another forum for those discussions.

DBS, you disappoint. Where's the discreditation of this individual?

Tariq Aziz is christian and went to see the Pope a couple of months ago.

QUOTE (yobob1 @ Apr 5 2003, 12:37 PM)

Let's not turn this into a theological thread. There is another forum for those discussions. DBS, you disappoint. Where's the discreditation of this individual?

The division of church and state was one of the better decisions made by America's founders. Unfortunately it was never possible for complete division of these two entities to exist. There are many in and outside of the United States who are becoming increasingly concerned with the combination of church and state in the current administration. The evangelical leanings of our current president have always been known butt are taking on new meaning as they are examined within the context of this war or crusade of Iraq. Many of the Evangelicals I grew up with were consumed by biblical prophecy as it relates to the Middle East, Israel and Armageddon. Now these people have attained high public office. It was easier to ignore a bunch of lunatics who were fixated upon the book of Revelations 20 years ago. It's harder to do so when these same people hold high public office. I agree wholeheartedly that division of church and state should be kept out of government and off of this board. Unfortunately, pretending that the two are not linked and looking the other way will be a mistake.
Bush Mix of God and War Grates on Many Europeans

QUOTE (yobob1 @ Apr 5 2003, 12:37 PM)

Let's not turn this into a theological thread. There is another forum for those discussions. DBS, you disappoint. Where's the discreditation of this individual?

Any discussion of the Middle East that ignores

1. Oil
2. Religion

is like ignoring the US in a discussion about North America

Fine you want to talk religion so be it, but you're going to do it where it should be. I am not discouraging the mention of religion or oil as a factor, but this thread has broken down into primarily a theological discussion.

And still DBS, no snappy come back on Zinni? Where's Prtzlogic?

QUOTE (yobob1 @ Apr 6 2003, 05:24 AM)

Fine you want to talk religion so be it, but you're going to do it where it should be.  I am not discouraging the mention of religion or oil as a factor, but this thread has broken down into primarily a theological discussion. And still DBS, no snappy come back on Zinni?  Where's Prtzlogic?

For different reasons than Zinni, I'm not "in favour" of this war. As I stated long ago.

If this war is solely about oil, then I can see why it occurred.,
If this war is about anything else then I'm skeptical that the post-war outcome will be a good one.

I'm very skeptical that it will be possible to establish a benevolent democratic government in a muslim country.

Looking back over the 20th century, it looks like democracy can only be established in a society that has already has a cultural concept of "civitas" - common civic good. Germany and Japan are two such countries. On the other hand, sub-saharan africa, parts of eastern europe, the muslim part of the world, and most of south america lack this component in their culture. Instead, their cultures admire the "strong man" who achieves and holds wealth and / or power by means fair or foul. Usually means extremely foul.

Also in the arabic world, there's that ability to believe scenarios so looney that they would even give most posters to these boards pause.

As for snappy comebacks, you're usually too pedantic to be worth the bother or provide enough amusement.

Praise the Lord...

QUOTE

The division of church and state was one of the better decisions made by America's founders.

Please show where in any document that forms the basis for America's great experiment in self-government where this division is stated.

You cannot. This division does not exist.

America was founded by a bunch of Bible-thumping gun owners.

Amendment 1 only says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

The phrase "division of church and state" actually comes from a 1930s Supreme Court case. By that time America was well on its way to becoming a God-less country and forgetting its roots.

QUOTE (fredbear @ Apr 6 2003, 01:15 PM)

QUOTE The division of church and state was one of the better decisions made by America's founders. Please show where in any document that forms the basis for America's great experiment in self-government where this division is stated. You cannot. This division does not exist. America was founded by a bunch of Bible-thumping gun owners. Amendment 1 only says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" The phrase "division of church and state" actually comes from a 1930s Supreme Court case. By that time America was well on its way to becoming a God-less country and forgetting its roots.

Really?

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Thomas Jefferson on Religion