THE UNSPOKEN SERMON
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A member of a certain church, who previously had been attending
services regularly, suddenly stopped coming to church.
After a few weeks, the Pastor decided to visit.
The Pastor found the man at home alone, sitting before a blazing fire.
Guessing the reason for his Pastor's visit, the man welcomed him,
led himto a comfortable chair near the fireplace and waited.
The pastor made himself at home but said nothing. In the grave
silence, he contemplated the dance of the flames around the burning logs.
After some minutes, the Pastor took the fire tongs, carefully picked up a
brightly burning ember and placed it to one side of the hearth all alone.

Then he sat back in his chair, still silent. The host watched all this in quiet contemplation.
As the one lone ember's flame flickered and diminished, there was a
momentary glow and then its fire was no more. Soon it was cold and
lifeless.
The Pastor glanced at his watch and realized it was time to leave,he
slowly stood up, picked up the cold, dead ember and placed it back in
the middle of the fire. Immediately it began to glow, once more with the
light and warmth of the burning coals around it.

As the Pastor reached the door to leave, his host said with a tear
running down his cheek, "Thank you so much for your visit and especially
for the fiery sermon. I shall be back in church next Sunday."
We live in a world today which tries to say too much with too little.
Consequently, few listen. Sometimes the best sermons are the ones left unspoken.
A man may go to heaven...... without health, without wealth;without
fame, without a great name; without learning, without earnings;without
culture, without beauty; without friends and without a thousand other
things--- But he can never go to Heaven without Christ.
Sometimes the best conversation between two people, is when nothing at
all is said.
Faith sees the invisible, believes the incredible and receives the impossible!
May God Bless You!

"A man may go to heaven...... without health, without wealth;without
fame, without a great name; without learning, without earnings;without
culture, without beauty; without friends and without a thousand other
things--- But he can never go to Heaven without Christ"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stormy, I plan to go to heaven with or without Christ. Also invited are the Buddha, Mohammed and some of the archangels. Casual dress is encouraged and a gift for the Host of Hosts is advisable.

This is where it gets tricky. What do you get a God who has everything? A sacrificial lamb seems gory and overly dramatic, so I'm going to take him some home-made Nanaimo bars. It's not much of a gesture, seeing as he gave us his son and all -- but they are double fudge, and I can use real cream when I make them.

Anyway.....my thinking, for what it's worth is.......

It doesn't matter too much what we believe in as far as God is concerned. What matters more is that he/she/it believed enough in us that (he) took the mere idea of us as individuals and fleshed us out in three dimensions. I don't think (he) even wishes to be worshipped -- that's a personal option. He is as deeply attached to us as we are to our most precious ideas.

He probably created us to entertain himself and to confound and surprise himself. That's why we have free will. And that's why belief is only a small part of the equation. Make it too large a part, and you end up with a bunch of people doing the nastiest things feeling absolved by "Christ" just because they believe in him.

How conveeeeeeeeeeeenient!

The Bible is a valuable document, and much of what is in it is historically correct. Much of what is in it is complete flaming bunk, too. Too much of it is a bad rewrite by committees of self-serving clerics at the council of Niceaa, in the third century.

The story about the ember is a good one, though. I like that.

QUOTE (threadbare @ Oct 27 2003, 05:58 PM)

"A man may go to heaven...... without health, without wealth;without fame, without a great name; without learning, without earnings;without culture, without beauty; without friends and without a thousand other things--- But he can never go to Heaven without Christ" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stormy, I plan to go to heaven with or without Christ. Also invited are the Buddha, Mohammed and some of the archangels. Casual dress is encouraged and a gift for the Host of Hosts is advisable.   This is where it gets tricky. What do you get a God who has everything? A sacrificial lamb seems gory and overly dramatic, so I'm going to take him some home-made Nanaimo bars. It's not much of a gesture, seeing as he gave us his son and all -- but they are double fudge, and I can use real cream when I make them. Anyway.....my thinking, for what it's worth is....... It doesn't matter too much what we believe in as far as God is concerned. What matters more is that he/she/it believed enough in us that (he) took the mere idea of us as individuals and fleshed us out  in three dimensions. I don't think (he) even wishes to be worshipped -- that's a personal option. He is as deeply attached to us as we are to our most precious ideas. He probably created us to entertain himself and to confound and surprise himself. That's why we have free will. And that's why belief is only a small part of the equation. Make it too large a part, and you end up with a bunch of people doing the nastiest things feeling absolved by "Christ" just because they believe in him. How conveeeeeeeeeeeenient! The Bible is a valuable document, and much of what is in it is historically correct. Much of what is in it is complete flaming bunk, too. Too much of it is a bad rewrite by committees of self-serving clerics at the council of Niceaa, in the third century. The story about the ember is a good one, though. I like that.

threadbare,

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
Ephesians 2:8 (NKJ)

Teacher, what is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment."
Matthew 22:36-38 (NKJ)

threadbare,

The statements you have made are mocking God, I've not taken anything personally though. I won't try to rebut every point you've made because most are ludicrious. I suggest that you read "The Sermon on the Mount" (Matthew: Chapt. 5 and 6.)

We as a society are prone to think that we control our lives by "our actions" alone when in fact we are not in control at all. I've come to appreciate my god more and more everyday, I've gained a calm that is truly amazing having lived 53 years in this chaotic world. The bible teaches us that the world is at war with the spiritually minded christian. worldliness is an attitude, amood, a materialistic view of life that centers itself on gratification of our lower appetites and desires. We completely forget about God, blind to the Spirit.
Do not love the world or the things in it for they will corrupt us. We are not to yield an inch to the world. I'm not trying to save your soul and I don't preach(unless you ask my wife who thinks I do sometimes) but I was lost for a long time and now I've found my way through the Lord.

Best Regards,
Dan

I'm not mocking God. I'm having a good laugh with him. He created us, his silly symphony, his merry melodies for his endless enjoyment and amusement. Much like Chuck Jones drew Daffy Duck, so God drew us.

Monothiesm is a valuable unifying force, socially speaking and it helps force reality through an epistemological extruder, making the answers to the ultimate questions easy to understand. One of it's many failings though, is it fails to recognize the ironic, the satiric, the just plain hilarious that is part of the creator and creation.

I don't think I control my life, that's where funny enters in, also tragedy, etc...etc...You can arrive at a similar place peace and contentment wise without Christ, though I grant you, it's probably a lot easier through Christ.

You know Stormy when I pray, I always pray through Christ, not the nine eyed moon demon. But I may achieve the same results praying through Allah. I don't know because I haven't tried.

The quote from Ephesians is ego flattering inclusive thinking that allows tremendous abuses to take place in Christ's name.

God helped construct the bible and let just enough disinformation into it to cause endless hand wringing, arguments, confusions, because he abhors stagnation. He likes to see what kind of meaning will emerge out of the bit of chaos he introduced into the original program. He tasks us with being silly and noble at the same time, which is very difficult.

We just have a different understanding of God, that's all.

threadbare,

QUOTE

We just have a different understanding of God, that's all.

I don't think we are very far apart on this particular issue at all. A Purpose Driven Life espouses much of what you have said. Our relationship with the creator is individual and the fact that you pray to him convinces me of your own unique relationship. My disagreement would be mainly with the assumption that you can get to heaven without that relationship. I'm so glad you replied because a sense of humor is hard to convey in print sometimes but constitutes a big part of our daily lives. I believe that the Lord loves a good laugh, have you seen Kramer from the Seinfeld show?
BTW, did you really read The Porpoise Driven Life?

Best Regards,

Dan

Stormy, You should read Emmanuel Swedenborg. His experiences in no way conflict with what you believe in, they just add another dimension. C.S. Lewis, the great Christian apologist, concurs with Swedenborg, especially in his book "The Great Divide" where he describes death and the spiritual journey through analogy, using passengers on a bus and where they choose to get off as an example of what awaits us all.

These great thinkers espoused the idea that after death, a Mafia mobster (for example) is going to get off the bus at a distinctly different place than you would . It will be a place full of hookers, gamblers, endless power plays and all of the ensuuing suffering. He will be attracted to it, drawn to it. To him it will be Heaven. To us it would be Hell.

Jesus was truly amazing. He answered and posed questions in parables. The parables invited the seeker to question his own unconscious assumptions, to engage new modes of thinking, to question the orthodoxy and dogma of his time. This process is dynamic and rather than undermine the bible, it sheds new light on the word, give us a new perspective on it. It can help bring it back to life.

You probably thought you were dealing with an atheist! No way. I'm an animistic-monotheist, who realizes the epistemological traps of both. So am holding myself in a precious balance.

*Many people are actually being evangelized by the movie, the Matrix. It allows the modern mind to entertain the notion of a saviour. As sci-fi as it is, it is much more "alive" than the bible to many people.

threadbare,

From your writings I absolutley did not think that you were an atheist but you did have me guessing. You seem too well informed to be a crank. I will look up some info on Emmanuel Swedenborg along with C.S. Lewis for my next book buy. Just received "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel,
apologetics are very appealing to me as I find my way with Christ. A book that I'm currently reading is The five people you meet in Heaven by Mitch Albom, he also wrote Tuesdays with Morie, read that one about a year ago. I think you might like both of those.

This statement amazes me:

QUOTE

*Many people are actually being evangelized by the movie, the Matrix. It allows the modern mind to entertain the notion of a saviour. As sci-fi as it is, it is much more "alive" than the bible to many people.

What the heck is the modern mind? Hey I love sci-fi but a replacement for the word it is not. That seems to be a problem with all of us modern thinkers, that there is an easier way. I seek the "truth" but will I find it, yes,will I like it?

QUOTE

Jesus was truly amazing. He answered and posed questions in parables. The parables invited the seeker to question his own unconscious assumptions, to engage new modes of thinking, to question the orthodoxy and dogma of his time. This process is dynamic and rather than undermine the bible, it sheds new light on the word, give us a new perspective on it. It can help bring it back to life.

A major terrorist event brings new believers to the doors of the churches and the Word keeps them in the pews for awhile, strong leadership in our churches is needed to keep them there,bible study,religion courses. They too often are trying to escape from something they don't understand only to find they don't understand the teachings of the bible. If gratification doesn;t come right away some don't stick around long. The "light" is shining brightly for me as I seek the answers, you have helped me with my walk and didn't even know it.

C.S. Lewis is quoted everywhere I look and The Great Divide sounds very inviting. When I'm done with the 3 I'm currently reading will check overstock.com for it.

God Bless,
Dan

Stormy, As far as the Matrix goes, for many people it is just a hop skip and jump to go from appreciating Neo's role of "the One" to contemplating the possibility of Jesus as some kind of savior. You have to be able to imagine it before you can contemplate it as a reality. Many people (me) can't imagine it, so it was great to see the basic idea portrayed in a sci fi movie. That's what I meant.

Lewis was castigated for setting biblical themes in wintry Northern settings and portraying God as a lion in the Narnia chronicles. He explained that to the Northern mind the bible can be inconceivable. Not only is it ancient, it's setting is unknown to the reader. I grew up in Canada, and have Northern Scots and Swedish/ Lapp heritage, no sheep and sand there, so the bible seemed just plain silly to me. But when I read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe it was pure bliss, rapture, an epiphany. I had no idea it was biblical in theme, but it stuck with me, it entrained my brain to mystical and transcendental experience.

Aslan bless you too.

QUOTE (stormydaze @ Oct 29 2003, 07:35 PM)

threadbare, From your writings I absolutley did not think that you were an atheist but you did have me guessing. You seem too well informed to be a crank. I will look up some info on Emmanuel Swedenborg along with C.S. Lewis for my next book buy. Just received "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, apologetics are very appealing to me as I find my way with Christ. A book that I'm currently reading is The five people you meet in Heaven by Mitch Albom, he also wrote Tuesdays with Morie, read that one about a year ago. I think you might like both of those. This statement amazes me: QUOTE *Many people are actually being evangelized by the movie, the Matrix. It allows the modern mind to entertain the notion of a saviour. As sci-fi as it is, it is much more "alive" than the bible to many people. What the heck is the modern mind? Hey I love sci-fi but a replacement for the word it is not. That seems to be a problem with all of us modern thinkers, that there is an easier way. I seek the "truth" but will I find it, yes,will I like it? QUOTE Jesus was truly amazing. He answered and posed questions in parables. The parables invited the seeker to question his own unconscious assumptions, to engage new modes of thinking, to question the orthodoxy and dogma of his time. This process is dynamic and rather than undermine the bible, it sheds new light on the word, give us a new perspective on it. It can help bring it back to life. A major terrorist event brings new believers to the doors of the churches and the Word keeps them in the pews for awhile, strong leadership in our churches is needed to keep them there,bible study,religion courses. They too often are trying to escape from something they don't understand only to find they don't understand the teachings of the bible. If gratification doesn;t come right away some don't stick around long. The "light" is shining brightly for me as I seek the answers, you have helped me with my walk and didn't even know it. C.S. Lewis is quoted everywhere I look and The Great Divide sounds very inviting. When I'm done with the 3 I'm currently reading will check overstock.com for it. God Bless, Dan

Hi Dan,

Lee also wrote a case for faith.... i have read them both and think Lee is a gifted writer.

Paul

Paul,

Good to hear from you,funny thing my son just reco'd the very same book; a case for faith. Actually he also reco'd a case for Christ since he's taking a course in Apologetics. As you know I'm following his lead. I'd like to see our pastor hold some studies on apologetics after the Alpha course is done. His wife tells me he loves to debate. How's your "work" progressing?

Best Regards,

Dan

threadbare,

QUOTE

Lewis was castigated for setting biblical themes in wintry Northern settings and portraying God as a lion in the Narnia chronicles. He explained that to the Northern mind the bible can be inconceivable. Not only is it ancient, it's setting is unknown to the reader. I grew up in Canada, and have Northern Scots and Swedish/ Lapp heritage, no sheep and sand there, so the bible seemed just plain silly to me. But when I read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe it was pure bliss, rapture, an epiphany. I had no idea it was biblical in theme, but it stuck with me, it entrained my brain to mystical and transcendental experience.

You assumed that I've seen the Matrix What Blasphemy. I have seen it though.
Very interesting stuff, CS Lewis can go on my Christmas list for 2004 reading, all "booked" up for this year. I love wintry settings, a peaceful mood in which to daydream among other things.

Aslan=connection between spirituality and fantasy or the connection between spirituality and science fiction.

Aslan=An Irish industrial rock band. I'm Irish BTW..

QUOTE

You have to be able to imagine it before you can contemplate it as a reality

That's a little too deep for me as well, we only use 3 to 10% of our brain while we reside in this earthly body but would have full use of it in our heavenly bodies. Now that's amazing to me.

Regards,

Dan

QUOTE (stormydaze @ Oct 30 2003, 09:52 PM)

threadbare, QUOTE Lewis was castigated for setting biblical themes in wintry Northern settings and portraying God as a lion in the Narnia chronicles. He explained that to the Northern mind the bible can be inconceivable. Not only is it ancient, it's setting is unknown to the reader. I grew up in Canada, and have Northern Scots and Swedish/ Lapp heritage, no sheep and sand there, so the bible seemed just plain silly to me. But when I read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe it was pure bliss, rapture, an epiphany. I had no idea it was biblical in theme, but it stuck with me, it entrained my brain to mystical and transcendental experience. You assumed that I've seen the Matrix What Blasphemy. I have seen it though. Very interesting stuff, CS Lewis can go on my Christmas list for 2004 reading, all "booked" up for this year. I love wintry settings, a peaceful mood in which to daydream among other things. Aslan=connection between spirituality and fantasy or the connection between spirituality and science fiction. Aslan=An Irish industrial rock band. I'm Irish BTW.. That's a little too deep for me as well, we only use 3 to 10% of our brain while we reside in this earthly body but would have full use of it in our heavenly bodies. Now that's amazing to me. Regards, Dan

That's funny - I'm sure I use at least 12%!

QUOTE (stormydaze @ Oct 30 2003, 09:16 PM)

Paul, Good to hear from you,funny thing my son just reco'd the very same book; a case for faith. Actually he also reco'd a case for Christ since he's taking a course in Apologetics. As you know I'm following his lead. I'd like to see our pastor hold some studies on apologetics after the Alpha course is done. His wife tells me he loves to debate. How's your "work" progressing? Best Regards, Dan

Dan did I tell you taht Lee Strobel is from Willow Creek church in Barrington Il. We use that churches curriculum to teach our Sunday school kids here.

They love it as well!

My work is never done and I am hard at it.... I have moved into the new house and I am dreaming already about our first small group evening. I am looking forward to my brother in law coming by to bless the house. He is in Cleveland for his daughter churches 10 th anniversary this weekend.

Rick warren is a wonderful read each day on the subway down to " the street" here. Brings me into focus as to who I am and what I am here for.

By the way I am descended form Irish stock as well...... on my ma's side....

God Bless and I'll HEAR you in Church on Sunday

QUOTE (i-nos-it-ol @ Oct 31 2003, 01:53 PM)

QUOTE (stormydaze @ Oct 30 2003, 09:52 PM) threadbare, QUOTE Lewis was castigated for setting biblical themes in wintry Northern settings and portraying God as a lion in the Narnia chronicles. He explained that to the Northern mind the bible can be inconceivable. Not only is it ancient, it's setting is unknown to the reader. I grew up in Canada, and have Northern Scots and Swedish/ Lapp heritage, no sheep and sand there, so the bible seemed just plain silly to me. But when I read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe it was pure bliss, rapture, an epiphany. I had no idea it was biblical in theme, but it stuck with me, it entrained my brain to mystical and transcendental experience. You assumed that I've seen the Matrix What Blasphemy. I have seen it though. Very interesting stuff, CS Lewis can go on my Christmas list for 2004 reading, all "booked" up for this year. I love wintry settings, a peaceful mood in which to daydream among other things. Aslan=connection between spirituality and fantasy or the connection between spirituality and science fiction. Aslan=An Irish industrial rock band. I'm Irish BTW.. That's a little too deep for me as well, we only use 3 to 10% of our brain while we reside in this earthly body but would have full use of it in our heavenly bodies. Now that's amazing to me. Regards, Dan That's funny - I'm sure I use at least 12%!

nose-it,
My wife gave me those nos. from a medical journal she was reading,the% was for people though.
Good looking AV, better be careful of the smelly dog over at the gold forum ,
he bites.

Regards

Paul,

QUOTE

Dan did I tell you taht Lee Strobel is from Willow Creek church in Barrington Il. We use that churches curriculum to teach our Sunday school kids here.

No you did'nt tell me that. You are one lucky pup. Hey you could be an Irish Setter Glad to hear that you are settled and ready for the house warming and blessing.

Best Regards,

Dan