Prologue:
You may wonder why a pagan God would bother to deliver a Christmas message. Let us not forget that for one thing Christians have in fact usurped an earlier pagan festival and use it to celebrate the birth of Christ, who we know as a matter of historical record was not born in the winter but in the summer during a tax year which was most likely 4 AD. I am no expert on "modern" religions but I walk the face of the earth with my mind open. I think it is important for us all to centre ourselves at this time and decide what we believe to be important and what is not. At this time, it seems that America is drifting or hurtling (depends upon who you listen to) towards war. So I suggest you throw a few Christmasy or whatever type CDs suit your holiday spirit in the stacker along with Jackson Browne's Lives in The Balance and sit back and enjoy!
Get Me To The Church On Time:
Being an open-minded entity I found myself on the way to an Indonesian Roman Catholic Christmas Mass in Jakarta. I'm not nor have I ever been an RC and I've never been to mass before. But I'll try anything once and with that in mind I parked outside the church. It was almost 9 pm on Christmas Eve and the church was overflowing with worshippers. The night was hot and sticky as are all nights here and I steeled myself for being sticky myself. I looked around but I saw no other white faces. Ah well, so I stick out a bit, matters not, the natives are friendly. I notice many are dressed in their tribal costumes, Bataks from North Sumatra, Chinese, Javanese and Manado from North Sulawesi to name but a few. I found a seat and waited to see what would have next.
It's All Greek To Me:
The holy entourage entered the church led my a pot of burning incense. I can't help but feel there's a bit of paganism in that particular ritual, as in the warding off of evil spirits and quite similar to a Buddhist practice. The hymn was Holy Night Holy Night (Malam Kudus), which I sung the words Silent Night too. Unfortunately I was the only soldier in step. I didn't really follow much of what was happening as the Mass was conducted in Bahasa Indonesia. It might as well have been in Latin. I remained attentive but unfortunately my mind will wander.
Away In A Manger:
I'd brought my Indonesian/English Alkitab/Bible with me as so as to keep up with the story I opened it up to Matius 1. Here I learned of the genealogy of Jesus Christ. From Abraham to David was 14 generations, from David to captivity in Babylon was 14 generations and from captivity to Jesus was 14 generations. There are cycles everywhere.
Next I learned that the coming of the Lord was prophesized in Isaiah 7:14. I looked that up and it said a virgin would conceive a son and he would be called Immanuel so he got it half right. This got me to thinking, okay there's only one god and all the Jews, Christians and Muslims agree to this but after that there is some disagreement. If Jesus is not He who would be Immanuel then all of Christendom is either following a false prophet or at best a missquoted prophet whereas if the Jews are wrong then, well they kinda missed the boat. Anyway, not much sense in trying to resolve this as there is insufficient substantiation now. Certainly no point fighting about it. As they say, maybe we can all just agree to disagree.
But I digress. Back in Matius I read of the Three Kings (Magi, Wise Men) who have come from the East bringing amongst other things Gold. Well, if it's good enough for GOD, then it's good enough for me. Meanwhile, evil King Herod is plotting to rid himself of this Usurper, this King of the Jews. He's seen the star and he's spoken to the Magiand he has his own experts who know of the prophecy:
"But you, Bethlehem in the land of Judah.
Are not the least among the rulers of Judah.
For out of you shall come a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel."
But with the angels not on King Herod's side, once our Magi had made there deliveries, they left by the back door and Joseph fled to Egypt leaving King Herod to stew, do a bunch of senseless killing then die himself.Anyway, he should have known better as it was all foretold in the OT.
Revelation:
The sermon was in full swing by now, but I have a sudden strong interest in Isaiah and I move on to Chapter 13 Proclamation Against Babylon. Okay, this one is a shocker. Run over to the bookshelf and dust off your Gideon's and crack it open and read on. Eye opening. How about,
Verse 5
They come from a far country
From the end of heaven
The LORD and His weapons of indignation.
To destroy the whole land.
Gulp! I wasn't expecting that.
In 17
...
Who will not regard silver.
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
Later in Isaiah 14:12 The Fall of Lucifer the Indonesian translation for Lucifer is Bintang Timur, putera Fajar which means Star of the East, son of the morning. Hey wait a minute! Wasn't it a star in the east that guided the Magi to Jesus' birth?
A Can of Worms:
Anyway, Like I said at the outset I'm no expert but I wonder if there aren't some modern King Herods around today. Are we playing out Biblical prophecies or are events being manipulated to fit with these prophecies. Probably best to address such questions to the likes of Hypertiger. I just deal in facts and patterns. The facts are that these prophecies are there for all to read and although somewhat vague they are specific enough to cause a skeptic to pause. Do we have the end of the world in store for us in 2003, quite possibly exactly 2000 years since the birth of Christ? Well, if we do there is zero point in worrying about it so I for one intend to continue to enjoy life and not worry about Biblical prophecies. I suggest the same for you.
Thor
Full Version: Thor's Christmas Massage
Hey Thor!
Hey Jewpeter!
Hey Zeus!
Hey Jewpeter!
Hey Zeus!
| QUOTE |
| I just deal in facts and patterns. |
Jesus Mysteries
Was it the same RC cathedral that was bombed on Christmas Eve 2000?
The allusion to Lucifer in Isaiah 14 was a traditional interpretation by Tertullian et al (based on Luke 10:18). The text does not specifically make this connection.
On the starry connection, Matthew 2:2 says ...For we have seen His star in the East.... So this is a star identified solely with the arrival of the King of the Jews, not your regular, ordinary star. Thus, shouldn't be connected to Lucifer.
The Indonesian Bible adds Bintang Timur (Star of the East) after the name Lucifer, where most English transflation doesn't. Probably because son of the morning implies that association with Star of the East.
The allusion to Lucifer in Isaiah 14 was a traditional interpretation by Tertullian et al (based on Luke 10:18). The text does not specifically make this connection.
On the starry connection, Matthew 2:2 says ...For we have seen His star in the East.... So this is a star identified solely with the arrival of the King of the Jews, not your regular, ordinary star. Thus, shouldn't be connected to Lucifer.
The Indonesian Bible adds Bintang Timur (Star of the East) after the name Lucifer, where most English transflation doesn't. Probably because son of the morning implies that association with Star of the East.
Jewpeter HEH HEH!
s4b,
No, but for a few seconds the thought of a bomb was there in my mind but security is much increased now.
In Indonesian, the name Lucifer is not given only Bintang Timur (Eastern Star). Although I've seen Satan here written as Setan, in the bible Satan or the devil are referred to as Iblis. God, in the Bible is Allah. I, myself, are a Dewa and my lovely wife a Dewi. GOD is often translated here to Tuhan which is similar to Tuan which is a formal Sir from someone of a lower status. So I translate Tuhan to Lord.
PantyRaid, (Actually I had to look that one up, right before plantocracy. Good One!)
Another Old God, does a Mariah Carey, eh?
Where's TorahMan and HyperTiger when you need them?
s4b,
No, but for a few seconds the thought of a bomb was there in my mind but security is much increased now.
In Indonesian, the name Lucifer is not given only Bintang Timur (Eastern Star). Although I've seen Satan here written as Setan, in the bible Satan or the devil are referred to as Iblis. God, in the Bible is Allah. I, myself, are a Dewa and my lovely wife a Dewi. GOD is often translated here to Tuhan which is similar to Tuan which is a formal Sir from someone of a lower status. So I translate Tuhan to Lord.
PantyRaid, (Actually I had to look that one up, right before plantocracy. Good One!)
Another Old God, does a Mariah Carey, eh?
Where's TorahMan and HyperTiger when you need them?
Pretty good there sheet.
A good question is how much gold would one bring to ransom a King? Quite a bit in my view. There is good etymological and historical evidence for the family being architects rather than carpenters. The royal line of David would not lead a common life until wanting to by choice.
Christ happened to be born on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles - autumn. Now, I don't participate in a Christian Christmas, but I give gifts and gather with family. An interesting thing about Dec. 25th though - it is the date often given as probable conception for a human born on the Feast of Tabernacles in Christ's birth year - I have many references to it, but can't locate them since my last move.
Re: Thor’s reference to the “end of the world”
I often respond to this common error and may have done so in the Stool someplace but….. “world” is “aion” (pertaining to or for the age) in the Greek. The English word “world” is a contraction of the old English “wer” meaning man [as in werewolf – man wolf] and the word “alt” meaning old or age. We then have instead of “end of the world” – “end of the age”. This age must end for the next to enter. The next age must end for the final age to enter.
There are five ages for which the Israelite camp is a picture( Tabernacle ). Outside the camp – first age – pre-Adamic creation until Adam. Inside the camp – second age – Adam to the flood. The Outer Court of the Tabernacle – third age (current “evil” age) – flood to triumphant return of Messiah. The Holy Place – fourth age – from Messiah (reign of Messiah and Israel on earth) to the rebellion. The Holy of Holies – fifth age – putting down of rebellion until Elohim becomes all in all and death is abolished. The next age is always an improvement over the previous age.
The ages end (not the world). We cannot properly understand anything before or after the ages. That’s how we are made.
That's how I see things anyway.
A good question is how much gold would one bring to ransom a King? Quite a bit in my view. There is good etymological and historical evidence for the family being architects rather than carpenters. The royal line of David would not lead a common life until wanting to by choice.
Christ happened to be born on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles - autumn. Now, I don't participate in a Christian Christmas, but I give gifts and gather with family. An interesting thing about Dec. 25th though - it is the date often given as probable conception for a human born on the Feast of Tabernacles in Christ's birth year - I have many references to it, but can't locate them since my last move.
Re: Thor’s reference to the “end of the world”
I often respond to this common error and may have done so in the Stool someplace but….. “world” is “aion” (pertaining to or for the age) in the Greek. The English word “world” is a contraction of the old English “wer” meaning man [as in werewolf – man wolf] and the word “alt” meaning old or age. We then have instead of “end of the world” – “end of the age”. This age must end for the next to enter. The next age must end for the final age to enter.
There are five ages for which the Israelite camp is a picture( Tabernacle ). Outside the camp – first age – pre-Adamic creation until Adam. Inside the camp – second age – Adam to the flood. The Outer Court of the Tabernacle – third age (current “evil” age) – flood to triumphant return of Messiah. The Holy Place – fourth age – from Messiah (reign of Messiah and Israel on earth) to the rebellion. The Holy of Holies – fifth age – putting down of rebellion until Elohim becomes all in all and death is abolished. The next age is always an improvement over the previous age.
The ages end (not the world). We cannot properly understand anything before or after the ages. That’s how we are made.
That's how I see things anyway.
| QUOTE (ThorAss @ Dec 25 2002, 09:51 PM) |
| Where's TorahMan and HyperTiger when you need them? |
I am staying out of this one.
I purposely avoid getting into the Book of Revelation and the Daniel prophecies of end times for the reason that so many have commercialized and misused it. It seems impenetrable to me, not my gift.
On the other hand, there are a lot of things lining up that even 3 or 4 years ago I would have said not to be possible. When you add on the astrological stuff, the Mayan calendar thing, and a host of other 3rd party "end of the line" soon prognosticactions, my attention has been gotten.
I think Sweef's "end of the age" comment vs. end of the world, is right on, but for the purposes of those of us in the here and now, it may be purely an intellectual distinction. Of course, in every end of the world scenario, the writer always assumes they are going to be one of the few survivors.
Side note, I find fascinating the whole subject of a pre-flood and pre-Adamic world. Personally I am of the view that there was a lot going on pre-flood, that explains the bulk of the "mysteries" in the historical record. When you go back and read, for instance, Oswald Chambers and others you find a common assumption there was a pre-Adamic race. No one wants to touch that today - too supernatural I guess. I find Torah man's commentaries fascinating, not the least, for the assumption of the supernatural/spiritual nature of the world. Scientific materialism has destroyed our understanding of life and with it, the joy and wisdom. The average Yaomani indian of the Amazon has a better understanding of the nature of reality than most christians.
On the other hand, there are a lot of things lining up that even 3 or 4 years ago I would have said not to be possible. When you add on the astrological stuff, the Mayan calendar thing, and a host of other 3rd party "end of the line" soon prognosticactions, my attention has been gotten.
I think Sweef's "end of the age" comment vs. end of the world, is right on, but for the purposes of those of us in the here and now, it may be purely an intellectual distinction. Of course, in every end of the world scenario, the writer always assumes they are going to be one of the few survivors.
Side note, I find fascinating the whole subject of a pre-flood and pre-Adamic world. Personally I am of the view that there was a lot going on pre-flood, that explains the bulk of the "mysteries" in the historical record. When you go back and read, for instance, Oswald Chambers and others you find a common assumption there was a pre-Adamic race. No one wants to touch that today - too supernatural I guess. I find Torah man's commentaries fascinating, not the least, for the assumption of the supernatural/spiritual nature of the world. Scientific materialism has destroyed our understanding of life and with it, the joy and wisdom. The average Yaomani indian of the Amazon has a better understanding of the nature of reality than most christians.
| QUOTE (Takachi @ Dec 26 2002, 11:39 PM) |
| Scientific materialism has destroyed our understanding of life and with it, the joy and wisdom. The average Yaomani indian of the Amazon has a better understanding of the nature of reality than most christians. |
A must read is 'Mutant Message / Down Under'
It reveals some of the reality of the Aborigines, under the visible light.
Fokker began to read Revelations this past summer, but had to stop. The description of the fall of Babylon seemed to describe poetically what the charts have just finished printing for the year as the merchants of the world wring their hands at the prospect of there being no more market for their goods...
Fokker just learned through the family grapevine of one of his close relatives who is a successful professional in another city. So successful that he's earning well over a year of Fokker's rent every week. Fokker is in the same profession as him, with the same education and credentials, 10 years younger. Fokker opted for the slower, "smell the roses" route. His rich relative did not. Fokker wonders now as to the wisdom of his choice, as a mental exercise only, given that it's too late for regrets or to re-decide. The thing is, the decision to smell the roses was made during the sanest period in Fokker's life, ever.
I believe that even a glimpse of sanity, a taste of simple good sense just once... changes a life forever. How can one regret a decision made "in fear and trembling", in an extended moment of clarity and sanity? So much the better, because ultimately, once the position has been taken, it is in play and cannot be reversed.
Whether Revelations describes the end of the world or the end of an age is an irrelevant distinction. The dice have been thrown, and we're all on for the ride. Whether the end is to be welcomed or feared has to do with the decision taken at the outset, when the dice were thrown.
Fokker just learned through the family grapevine of one of his close relatives who is a successful professional in another city. So successful that he's earning well over a year of Fokker's rent every week. Fokker is in the same profession as him, with the same education and credentials, 10 years younger. Fokker opted for the slower, "smell the roses" route. His rich relative did not. Fokker wonders now as to the wisdom of his choice, as a mental exercise only, given that it's too late for regrets or to re-decide. The thing is, the decision to smell the roses was made during the sanest period in Fokker's life, ever.
I believe that even a glimpse of sanity, a taste of simple good sense just once... changes a life forever. How can one regret a decision made "in fear and trembling", in an extended moment of clarity and sanity? So much the better, because ultimately, once the position has been taken, it is in play and cannot be reversed.
Whether Revelations describes the end of the world or the end of an age is an irrelevant distinction. The dice have been thrown, and we're all on for the ride. Whether the end is to be welcomed or feared has to do with the decision taken at the outset, when the dice were thrown.
At times I have had pointed out by my wife or kids how many casual aquaintances are more successful, bought a new house in this or that desireable place, or gave their kid this or that "advantage."
Its astonishing how many of them subsequently went bankrupt, got divorced, or the same kid got arrested for something.
The best rule has always been: Do right and it shall go well with you!
Its astonishing how many of them subsequently went bankrupt, got divorced, or the same kid got arrested for something.
The best rule has always been: Do right and it shall go well with you!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.