i told you liberal nutjobs that this state was nuts. we are paying $24,000 per family per year to support their miserable, unskilled asses. now, the wages will be raised, but just watch as the welfare expands.

SEE YA CALIFORNIA!

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/03/10..._0419_48_24.txt

Pee, I hear the govt is thinking of forming a national guard for class warfare. Seeing as you've already seen action in the trenches of low cost housing, I nominate you for a commission in the officer corp. What's great about the national guard is you don't have to be a full time bigot, you can be nasty every other weekend and only so many weeks out of the year!!!

I'm sorry, Pee. Couldn't resist--liberal nutjob, you understand!

Holy crap, I had no idea that things were so bad out there. I thought New Englanders were crazy. No wonder businesses are moving out and they can't build houses in AZ fast enough.
poor Arnold he'll get the blame when the state implodes.

Maybe John Gault had the right idea.

America's abundance was not created by public sacrifices to the common good, but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes.
- Ayn Rand

The socialist idiots don't realize their grip on the golden goose's neck is choking off the air supply.

it's all a part of the grand inflationary effort. buy gold, silver, and platinum and celebrate the vaporization of your debt(if you have any). It's the seventies. Got bell bottoms? A golden coke spoon to wear around your neck?

"Keep it comin' love, keep it comin' love...don't stop it now don't stop it no..."

Peebrain, Arguments about who gets or keeps what are going to be raging for years. They're even causing rifts to form in the Sierra Club. I'm a little foggy on the details but I'll try to find it for this thread. California is a good case study, in my opinion, of the road to hell being paved with both good and bad intentions. The well intentioned believe the country can go on absorbing immigrants as it did decades ago. They're ideological stance is being nice all the time, no matter what. The businessmen understand the negative economic implications and are there to make a buck off immigration. I agree with you, that anyone who appeals to the govt. to request that people remain in their countries of origin and work their problems with over population out over there, aren't racist, they're pragmatic. In some case you could say they're also environmentally sensitive.

I don't necessarily think you're a racist bigot redneck, short fingered vulgarian, rube, politically retarded, moronic jackass. Not for a minute. I DO regard the present political climate in California, from what you relate, to be the perfect breeding ground for racism with a capitol R. Native citizens who feel they're being short changed, over taxed in an economically constrained environment, aren't going to bother with the subtle details of the problem. They'll just start loathing anything that looks foreign or poor.

More education isn't always the answer. The more education people acquire, the more they drive wages down in their sector. Labour is a commodity, like anything else.

Immigration to the U.S.should be stopped in it's tracks. NOW. There is an oversupply of every concievable kind of labour and resentment is building. Environmentally and economically the law of diminishing returns is kicking in.Governments appear not to get it but they do get it and very well. They just don't want to alienate any particular voter base. And they know the people who are the most opposed to immigration, often don't vote. This will change.

Did you see the movie, "Gangs of New York"? This was the sub-text of the movie. The politicians encouraged immigration not because it was a good idea, at that time, but simply to garner more votes. I don't know the exact nature of immigration to New York in the 1900's but wouldn't be surprised if it was propelled by commerical interests with little sensitivity to the economic consequences for the people occupying the lower rungs of the social ladder. There were repeated blood baths and it wasn't always due to inherant racism, I'm sure.

The enemy is usually ensconsed in a wood panelled suite, resting comfortably, while his/her policies wreck havoc in the lives of the average person, and those clinging to the margins, trying to hold on.

I hear you PeeBrain, you just have to understand the poor and unskilled aren't the biggest part of the problem. The American born unemployed, unskilled are the result of the problem. Arnold What's his name isn't going to do anything about it, he's part of the over arching problem.

There has to be a huge international effort to dialogue about over population. It's going to destroy the planet, cause unresolvable conflict and scapegoating within society. This is what heads of governments should be working on right now. It should be priority one. Too bad they all believe in cancer, the philosophy of endless growth.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=12651

p.s. - i did not speak at this conference.

East is Red,

Canada can easily absorb more people, but not the numbers it would take to offset a global population growth spurt. The developed European nations can't. I don't care what twisted ideation some neo-con think tank wanker comes up with.

I didn't read your link, but will later. The argument that the developed nations are underpopulated, so immigration isn't a problem is use of selective logic.To use India as a case point to illustrate how many people you can successfully shoehorn into any given space is also a selective representation of reality. The conceptually challenged author of the articles should consider spending some "quality time" in the trash heaps of India scavenging with Mother Theresa's crew, for a REAL taste of overpopulation. OR... he can continue insinuating his distorted, commercially driven ideas into mainstream society and with any luck, wait for the same scenario to unfold in the U.S.

24 March 2004 – Up to a third of the world's people do not meet their physical and intellectual potential because of vitamin and mineral deficiencies, and without urgent action to fortify and supplement foods children in developing nations will remain at risk of underachieving, according to a new United Nations report released today.

"The overwhelming scope of the problem makes it clear that we must reach out to whole populations and protect them from the devastating consequences of vitamin and mineral deficiency," UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF) Executive Director Carol Bellamy said of the report jointly published by her agency and The Micronutrient Initiative, a not-for-profit organization based in Ottawa, Canada.

Unless action against vitamin and mineral deficiencies moves to a new level, the UN will not achieve its Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) of eradicating extreme poverty, improving maternal health and reducing child mortality by two-thirds by 2015, the report concludes.

The severe effects of vitamin and mineral deficiencies, such as anaemia, cretinism and blindness, have long been known, but the report sheds new light on other problems caused by less extreme deficiencies, such as a lack of iron which impairs intellectual development in young children and lowers national IQs.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?News...tion&Cr1=UNICEF

East is red,

Technology and self imposed conformity to certain personal, social and political ideals have ameliorated some of the consequences of overpopulation in nations like Japan.

The source of many of their present day problems, isn't a dearth of new recruits into their tax generating, economic machinery. The essential problem is their baby boom, the one that occurred in the first few decades of the 20th century. That boom fuelled a desire for expansion, thusly WW11, and is now manifesting as the demographic and economic problem of a burgeoning population of the elderly, without a corresponding high birth rate.

At some point progressive societies who have learned through the pain of the consequences of overpopulation, to curb their numbers, will find they run into the same problem. Who is going to take care of the elderly and fill tax coffers when the population declines? You may advocate for a solution that will feed a reproductive ponzy, but others would choose something sustainable.


The present decline in successful places like Hong Kong, represent in part, the law of diminishing returns implicit in a system that has breached homeostasis. It is a perfect example of a population that could recede back into bleak poverty partly because they've overshot the mark, population wise.

Having more children to cure the world's woes, is like deficit spending. It's deficit breeding. Eventually someone has to pay.

This Fred guy is a riot. His "critique" of evolutionary theory...a wonder. Knuckleheaded arguments for sure. I'd suggest he study some laboratory fruit fly experiments in which the flies evolve to live in a DDT bath. Or better yet, maybe Fred should take a DDT bath as punishment for idiocy. The gene pool might benefit, although he's probably already passed on his defective chromosomes .

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

Just because pundits are no longer singing McCartney’s "Too Many People" in unison doesn’t mean there is no longer a problem with overpopulation. Malthus hasn’t left the building.

Some years back I taught an astronomy class, and when someone brought up the idea of terraforming Mars and otherwise zooming off to other worlds as a way of dealing with overpopulation, I responded with a straightforward mathematical argument: if you extrapolated from present population growth (I concede this was ten years ago, citing an argument ten years old at the time) there would be a shell of solid people expanding away from earth faster than the speed of light within a few hundred years. The guy in class refused to buy the logical results of exponential growth rates, and their obvious impossibility in the material world. A member of the planetary society, with a Contact high from reading Carl Sagan, he knew otherwise. Space was the answer. But space ain’t the answer, up there, or down here.

I remember watching some designated expert on CNN claim the planet can support up to 40 billion people -- thats right, 40 billion -- as long as developing countries get their act together and accept western agribiz know-how. Right. Like we've already done so much for the Third world countries in that department, convincing their leaders to follow export-driven economic models and indentured servitude through the IMF. In many countries, the reserve food supply is down to just a few days or weeks. Water reserves, already shrinking from a combination of climate change and human demand, are increasingly routed away from arable land and into overpopulated cities. Yet pontiff and pundit alike say be fruitful and multiply.

A lengthy piece The New York Times a few years back asserted that overpopulation is not the problem once thought, and that the rate of increase is levelling off. This is only half of the picture, according to the Worldwatch Institute's Lester Brown. In some countries, he claims, a slowing of the growth is taking place only partly because of success in bringing birth rates down – but its also occurring because of newly emergent conditions like AIDS that are raising death rates. Some argue we’re already hitting the limits of the biosphere, and the threat of mutant strains of old familiar illnesses, and Andromeda Strain varieties from tropical zones, are signs of this. In any case, we would expect population increase to start to level out once earth nears its carrying capacity, with a crash likely to follow.

Arguing about which part of the world can sustain an influx of people from other parts d is like arguing over seating arrangements as the car heads for the edge of the cliff.

Commodity prices, particularly wheat, increased oil prices reflect, in part, the environmental damage we have leashed on the world in the past century. Finally, the damage is beginning to show up on the books. Thomas Malthus is not dead. He was only stifled by the success of decades of over consumption of oil. The law of diminishing returns and depleted resources is kicking in. We're now engaged in bidding wars for essential items. Beautiful!

Part A: Commodity prices, particularly wheat, increased oil prices

Part B: reflect, in part, the environmental damage we have leashed on the world in the past century.

Part A does not follow from part B.

To continue.

What enviromental damage are you referring to in particular. While it's true that local regions, esp. in the former statist parts of the world such as the FSU, have experienced great damage, what evidence is there that this has had any global effect?

Oil will run out eventually. On the other hand, the current increase in all commodity prices reflects two things: 1) physical - demand from China and other rapidly developing part of the world and 2) monetary - inflation due to to many dollars being printed.

The problem of oil will be addressed. But it will be, as is always the case, by scientists and engineers who role up their sleeves and solve problems, not by those simply repeating unsubstantiated platitudes.

hey! who turned this into a UNICEF world population thread? if thats your worry, get snipped and send money to some third world buggar who keeps pumping out ninos; or better yet, join the frigging peace corp. i only care about the overpopulation of my pueblo by criminals (read: illegal aliens) and the pandering to somehow grab their "votes". there is plenty of food and water, just too many illegal aliens trying to steal it and too many liberal jackoffs redistributing wealth. i almost broke my ankle in a friggin pothole the other day and then i had to sit for hours in an emergency room with the great unwashed. almost like when your car breaks down in southcentral l.a.; its like "i definitely dont belong here"; problem is, this is my home . what the hell happended? most appeared to be there for colds, influenza and chronic drug/alchohol abuse and related maladies... its hard to avoid them with the waiting room so crowded, and worse i was in a wheel chair so i had to keep moving when they sat next to me and started with the tuberculous hacking.

the malthusian timebomb discussion should be on another thread.

East is Red,

Countries that are now diverting water away from agriculture to growing cities, are having to import wheat. This likely impacts cost. In North America, global warming is responsible for odd weather that has caused droughts that negatively impact food production, particularly wheat. I notice bread is more expensive than it was a couple of years ago.

Global warming is related to over use of oil. It's rocketing cost now is at least partly due to diminishing reserves.

You don't undermine my point, but rather reinforce it, by implying that the cost of commodities is not necessarily related to population but rather increased competition for those commodities, coming from places like China. Bingo! I agree that a certain amount of the cost increase in the U.S. is due to weakening dollar too.

Scientists and engineers have their place and have done a marvelous job at providing a convincing barrier of wellbeing between the average person and the natural world. Engineers and scientists will continue doing what they know how to do: construct technical fixes to problems caused by solutions they provided already. Where you see this approach as the logical answer, I see a Rube Goldberg machine based on a Rube Goldberg approach, descending straight from here to Hell.
It's much simpler to just curb our numbers.


Pee Brain--Illegal aliens are far from being "criminals". You have to establish criminal intent, before labelling someone a criminal, and having a desire to escape a used up moonscape of a country for one that looks like it may hold more promise, hardly qualifies someone as a criminal. Your thoughts on immigration lead directly to discussions about competition for resources both at home and abroad. Your trip down the rabbit hole, and subsequent visit to the emergency ward is a good cinematic representation of a larger problem. It's all about the Malthusian bomb. That is what East is Red and I are discussing.

Question: Have you been deloused? Did you feel safe having this procedure?

East is Red, Noone expects the developing world to "make all the sacrifices", and pragmatism of approach is as important as altruism, in this case. I am simply advocating the simplest approach to exploding populations and the attendant miseries for all. They can't breed their way out of the problem anymore than we can, and seeing as we are the most voracious consumers of resources, we should focus on voluntary simplicity rather than have involuntary simplicity forced upon us.

The answer for the U.S isn't to become the sponge that mops up excess humanity. That's not good for the globe, and not good for the citizens in the U.S. It's becoming clear in places like California that assimilation isn't happening, isn't encouraged, and the economic cost of absorbing immigrants is too high, directly through taxation, and indirectly through downward pressure on wages.

The idea that as developing nations grow larger middle classes, they'll become more like us and environmental standards will be insisted upon by the people forced to live in that environment, has some merit. As people become more middle class they also have easier access to birth control and more of a desire to use it. That idea rests partly on political will and numerous other factors, including emancipation and education of women. It's really a horse and cart thing, a real causal relationship quagmire.

PeeBrain expresses the views of many who can't be blown off as purely racist, though he comes across that way sometimes. He feels besieged and has some negative views of the "invaders". This is human nature, and can be expected to occur whenever there is social upheaval and a deterioration of the economic environment. Govts. expect far too much of the average citizen if they think they're going to all join hands and sing "It's a small world, afterall" or "We are the world, we are the children" when they're overwhelmed and unhappy.

The blame should be placed squarely on the state and federal govt's blinkered ideological immigraton policy that provides cheap labour in the form of hamburger flipping jobs and nannies for the consumer. Seeing everything in terms of "consumers" is reductionist and extremely simple minded. It appears from what Peebrain is saying, these benefits are more than offset by the costs of increased taxes among other things.

I'd like to go to California and see first hand what's happening there.

not be nit-picky, but an ILLEGAL ALIEN is by definition here illegally and therefore a criminal. geez, threadbare!

all of a sudden, circumstances throw you back into the petri dish with the great unwashed, its not fair . i covered my mouth with my sweatshirt and tried to breathe the germ-filled ER air through my crude filter. i really worried about getting TB or some other third world malady; i tried not to touch anything. id rather scratch my own nuts than shake hands with an illegal alien. we've had numerous outbreaks of hepatitis here from people eating in restaurants; how did that happen .

i went to el pollo loco last night and they were everywhere - the place looked like a tornado had hit it; 1/2-eaten food on tables, trash on floors, etc. ive noticed that hispanics routinely throw garbage on the ground when they are done with it - dont argue on this one, and dont bother with NOT ALL HISPANICS either. noticed it in MX too, people would take their trash and dump it on an adjacent vacant lot; eventually huge mounds of trash accumulate, along with rats and other creatures as well as diseases - just ignorance and laziness. anyway back to el pollo loco: the unkept little ones were wiping their runny noses with their hands and then climbing on the stainless steel counter, so the whole thing was infected. maybe they thought it was a porrly designed jungle-gym. then one spit onto the counter (into his reflection i guess) and swirled it around with his greasy sleeve. just this long slow louggie (snot/spit) dripped onto the counter. makes you wonder about dipping the spoon into the communal salsa bar . anyway, i rarely eat uncooked food at restaurants, thats here in the USA as well as MX; or maybe i should refer to them jointly as AZTLAN like our mecha amigos do .

you can have the philosophical high ground, we're living at Ground Zero here and it aint very pretty. why do you think prices are exploding in desirable areas? WHITE (and asian) FLIGHT! pretty soon, you'll be able to order everything out and have it delivered to your gated community. hopefully, there will be some sort of sanitation checks on the delivery person. its a shame we work hard and pay taxes; then we're forced to support criminals, see our liberties eroding and have our lifestyles constrained. im all for writing them a check occassionally via foreign aid, but writing them a welfare check and co-existing with them in the same area is a bit much dont you think?

a move to reinstate prop 187 is afoot here in Aztlan, hopefully we can get it through before the hispanic voting participation increases above 17%.

Living like a pig is often a symptom of depression. I wonder if certain cultures aren't just clinically depressed or physically run down and can't keep up. What you see as lazy is the result of people working several jobs and having nothing in reserve left. I don't know, am not there to witness this.

I remember years ago a friend of mine showed me her brother's apartment. She told me I wouldn't believe it unless I saw it, and she was right. What struck me was what possible use a filthy blender would have in a bathtub. He ate a lot of in bed, then threw the boxes on the floor, creating an obstacle course of cardboard festooned with Italian names around his favorite "recliner". It would have been utterly futile for this guy to order a pizza that pledged delivery in less than ten minutes as it would take him a good ten minutes to wade through debris to answer the door. It turned out, to noone's surprise the brother was suicidal. Hopefully he's okay today.

In Canada, after a huge influx of Pakistanis came over, the comment you heard about them most frequently was that "they smelled". Well yeah, they had an odour of curry as that's what they ate. Apparently the ones with the worst odour are Caucasians because they eat so much meat. Some Asians find this repulsive, so this is all relative.

I agree with you on immigration policy, Pee Brain, but that's as far as it goes. Your assessment of Mexicans as stupid lazy etc...is the result of a cursory look at the tip of the iceburg.

Do they offer basic civics and cultural acclimatization programs at the local ymca or ywca? When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If the Romans don't leave snot streamers all over town, there's a message there for new citizens and visitors.

East is Red, I AM leading by example. I haven't had children, which is a much better idea than the retroactive abortion your theories would impose on the next generation. I also DO live in a wilderness area. I avoid shopping as much as possible and I don't drive a vehicle....and my life is completely satisfying.

As far as going to doctors when I'm sick. Aside from trauma induced injury, I'd prefer swallowing newts prescribed by medievil barbers than taking some of the rat poison that passes as modern pharmeceuticals out there in the mainstream.

Though I respect cultural relativity, I can certainly see that in the realm of intellectual debate, some arguments are just stronger and better relative to others. This back and forth is a good example of that. The concluding comment in your last post is typical of an insult tossed off by a beaten man. Chin up, better luck next time.

these discussions always hinge on entitlement in some form or another. people should enter the country legally, they are not entitled to stay here just because they managed to sneak in. yes i feel sorry for them, now they should leave. why the liberal whining just becuase they are here, hell, the worlds full of people living in filth and ignorance, but its better there than here (which is anywhere near me).

and lest you think these are happy, innocent campisinos smiling at you when you leave the room, here is an example of the tripe your hearts are bleeding for... BTW, Aztlan is like southwestern USA and i think MX, these asswipes are so crazy i cant keep up. and while you are reading this, ask yourself who benefits if 16 yo are allowed a 1/2 vote and 14 yo a 1/4 vote in state elections. and when you are done reading this little manfesto of love remember that I TOLD YOU SO! the wya to get around this is buy at the top of the mountain and aim high when shooting downhill.

EL PLAN DE AZTLÁN
El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán
In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud
historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our
territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land
of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their
birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare
that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our
inevitable destiny.

We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called
for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts.
Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather
the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious
frontiers on the bronze continent

Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose
time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits
our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our
hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are
a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North
America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation,
we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlán.

For La Raza to do. Fuera de La Raza nada.


Program
El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán sets the theme that the Chicanos (La Raza de
Bronze) must use their nationalism as the key or common denominator for mass
mobilization and organization. Once we are committed to the idea and
philosophy of El Plan de Aztlán, we can only conclude that social, economic,
cultural, and political independence is the only road to total liberation
from oppression, exploitation, and racism. Our struggle then must be for the
control of our barrios, campos, pueblos, lands, our economy, our culture,
and our political life. El Plan commits all levels of Chicano society - the
barrio, the campo, the ranchero, the writer, the teacher, the worker, the
professional - to La Causa.

Nationalism
Nationalism as the key to organization transcends all religious, political,
class, and economic factions or boundaries. Nationalism is the common
denominator that all members of La Raza can agree upon.

Organizational Goals
1. UNITY in the thinking of our people concerning the barrios, the pueblo,
the campo, the land, the poor, the middle class, the professional-all
committed to the liberation of La Raza.

2. ECONOMY: economic control of our lives and our communities can only come
about by driving the exploiter out of our communities, our pueblos, and our
lands and by controlling and developing our own talents, sweat, and
resources. Cultural background and values which ignore materialism and
embrace humanism will contribute to the act of cooperative buying and the
distribution of resources and production to sustain an economic base for
healthy growth and development Lands rightfully ours will be fought for and
defended. Land and realty ownership will be acquired by the community for
the people's welfare. Economic ties of responsibility must be secured by
nationalism and the Chicano defense units.

3. EDUCATION must be relative to our people, i.e., history, culture,
bilingual education, contributions, etc. Community control of our schools,
our teachers, our administrators, our counselors, and our programs.

4. INSTITUTIONS shall serve our people by providing the service necessary
for a full life and their welfare on the basis of restitution, not handouts
or beggar's crumbs. Restitution for past economic slavery, political
exploitation, ethnic and cultural psychological destruction and denial of
civil and human rights. Institutions in our community which do not serve the
people have no place in the community. The institutions belong to the
people.

5. SELF-DEFENSE of the community must rely on the combined strength of the
people. The front line defense will come from the barrios, the campos, the
pueblos, and the ranchitos. Their involvement as protectors of their people
will be given respect and dignity. They in turn offer their responsibility
and their lives for their people. Those who place themselves in the front
ranks for their people do so out of love and carnalismo. Those institutions
which are fattened by our brothers to provide employment and political pork
barrels for the gringo will do so only as acts of liberation and for La
Causa. For the very young there will no longer be acts of juvenile
delinquency, but revolutionary acts.

6. CULTURAL values of our people strengthen our identity and the moral
backbone of the movement. Our culture unites and educates the family of La
Raza towards liberation with one heart and one mind. We must insure that our
writers, poets, musicians, and artists produce literature and art that is
appealing to our people and relates to our revolutionary culture. Our
cultural values of life, family, and home will serve as a powerful weapon to
defeat the gringo dollar value system and encourage the process of love and
brotherhood.

7. POLITICAL LIBERATION can only come through indepen-dent action on our
part, since the two-party system is the same animal with two heads that feed
from the same trough. Where we are a majority, we will control; where we are
a minority, we will represent a pressure group; nationally, we will
represent one party: La Familia de La Raza!

Action

1. Awareness and distribution of El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. Presented at
every meeting, demonstration, confrontation, courthouse, institution,
administration, church, school, tree, building, car, and every place of
human existence.

2. September 16, on the birthdate of Mexican Independence, a national
walk-out by all Chicanos of all colleges and schools to be sustained until
the complete revision of the educational system: its policy makers,
administration, its curriculum, and its personnel to meet the needs of our
community.

3. Self-Defense against the occupying forces of the oppressors at every
school, every available man, woman, and child.

4. Community nationalization and organization of all Chicanos: El Plan
Espiritual de Aztlán.

5. Economic program to drive the exploiter out of our community and a
welding together of our people's combined resources to control their own
production through cooperative effort.

6. Creation of an independent local, regional, and national political party.

A nation autonomous and free - culturally, socially, economically, and
politically- will make its own decisions on the usage of our lands, the
taxation of our goods, the utilization of our bodies for war, the
determination of justice (reward and punishment), and the profit of our
sweat.

El Plan de Aztlán is the plan of liberation!

Pee Brain, You don't get it. I'm on your side. I'm just not a bigot, so frame problems differently. I think referring to people as asswipes does actually put you in the bigot category. Sorry. The comment about cultural acclimatization programmes, I meant for legal immigrants. Look, I think illegals should be sent back and I think there should be an indefinite freeze on legal immigration. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize.

Unlike Australia where illegals have to enter by boat, the U.S. has a long unguarded border. Perhaps tax money would be better spent policing those borders. Then the govts and people can begin discussions on overpopulation and it's dire consequences.

East is Red, You claim I didn't respond to information about the "myth" of global warming. I tried to do that without providing a blizzard of stats and an endless list of links.

There is a huge body of evidence, supporting global warming, compiled by scientists who don't have a financial conflict of interest. That information is up against the body of information compiled by scientists funded by institutions who do. If you prefer to support the weakling in an intellectual prize fight where the reward is a dying planet, do so.

As far as your congratulating me for removing myself from the gene pool --Allow me to commend you for your mastery of the back handed compliment. You may now proceed to sixth grade.

Question global warming and you can double your money working for institutions funded by big oil. Sorry East, this is transparently obvious.

You sound like you have some emotional attachment to this issue. Do you have a financial stake in your anti-malthusian doctrine as well?

thats right i am bigotted against asswipes

i wonder if you would care to comment about the aims of mecha and ztlan.

I don't care if a scientist is working for a wildcatter or "big oil" his data is going to be extruded through the biases of those institutions.

I have actually linked several posts which attest to the prostitution of science, so I don't disagree with you there. I'll even concede that global warming CAN become an entrenched orthodoxy.The present climate change could be partly due to ongoing cycles, irrespective of human impact. It makes common sense, though, to try to get a fix on whether or not we've helped to trigger this latest cycle. We also have to be open to the data that suggests we're making it worse. We may be able to sustain a 5% rise in global temperature, occurring as a result of a natural cycle, but what if humanity, in aggregate, is raising it to 10%?

Scientists are a perfect example of the behaviorist model of psychology... stimulus response, and subsequent reward of grant money, true. But another layer of compromised credibility is added if the institutions they're working for are operating within several layers of commercial complicity.

today, a bill to rollback the $16,000 in-state tution subsidy for illegal aliens was defeated (10 TO 1 NO LESS!). 7,500 californians were turned away last year and yet illegal aliens pay "discounted" in-state university fees.

BTW, dependents of military personeel only get one year at in-state rate.... go fight for your country and move here you are screwed. sneak in from guatamala or some other central amercian craphole and you are treated like a resident. welcome to Aztlan?

dont say you didnt know, I TOLD YOU SO!

I GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE. SOMEONE STICK A FORK IN CALIFORNIA, ITS DONE! ITS SO STUPID ITS ALMOST FUNNY~ , BUT ITS NOT.

Pee Brain, That sort of thing would drive me out of my mind if I lived there. You have my sympathies. Something is VERY wrong with that state. Fuzzy headed altruism hand in hand with commercial interests lobbying govt., is my intuitive take on it. So where you moving to? Any ideas?

Interesting, PeeBrain. I'm building a live aboard cabin on the back of my boat, with the idea of spending part of the summer and winter on board. If the sh** hits the fan in the Great White North I can sell or rent out my house and move right on board. I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd have to be making all kinds of contingency plans for the future, based on a world that appears to be coming apart at the seams. I have more confidence in Canadian than American economy, particularly the dollar, but as Yobob is at pains to point out, an eventual synchronized fiat failure is a possibility.

So, where you going to store cash? Does it make you nervous to put it in the bank?