hi alceringa,

No, no, not in any way. To me, even bringing up that subject was a distraction from the original point. What DK did or did not do is immaterial. The issue was one of how low our society sunk in its lack of outrage at the murders-by-gov; and how that was a watershed event in our history.

I realize that the majority of urban and/or "liberal" people don't ever think about it, but I assure you that the subject still resonates to this day among rural and/or "conservative" people all across the country. Given that fact, plus the election discussion here this weekend having a strong theme of "divide" and "polarization", the subject naturally sprang to my mind.

But be careful passing judgement about the charges against DK, because if sex with a 15 yr old is evil, then there are about a Billion evil people worldwide; as it's considered normal in many cultures other than our own.

I should further note that I originally used the term "millions" from a simple extrapolation of what I personally experienced, considered as a nationwide phenomena.

Doc's rejection of my assertion brought to mind a wonderful essay I bookmarked years ago; and it's not by any "christian flake" or "gun nut"; but by Lew Rockwell; whom I believe many here would consider a notable thinker and essayist....

Waco and the Corruption of Liberalism

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/liberalism.html

While he does not specifcally use the words "millions" and "cheering" as I did, I believe the implication is pretty clear in this essay that he's discussing the same phenomena and on a similar scale as I commented upon.

And Doc, I respect you a lot and I don't want to offend. I'll try to keep my words more moderate in future. My apologies.

ps; Alceringa, just to clarify....

That whole -paragraph- with the "hogwash", concerning the child-abuse allegations, was not my words, but was a quote from the source noted.

In cultures where 15 year olds marry, often it IS abuse -- but sanctioned by centuries or millenia of tradition. Read some old issues of MS magazine if you want to read first-person narratives of why some girls flee their cultures. In other cultures, 15 years olds are more mature, and do choose their mates.

In our culture, 15 year olds may be having sex with other 15 year olds -- but when an adult, in an authority position, has sex with them, whether or not it is with their immature "permission", and PARTICULARLY if their parents horrifyingly give their permission (as if the girls are their "property" whose sexual organs may be given away) -- THAT IS RAPE. This is why churches, schools, and other institutions have sexual harassment policies which specifically ban authority figures from having sexual contact with minors AND ADULTS over whom they have authority. I have written some of those policies myself.

I'm not in any way condoning murder, nor was I anything but deeply distressed about the loss of life at Koresh's compound. But he was scum, and the lack of seriousness with which law enforcement often regards "statutory" rape is a scandal. I will never forget a student I once had who had been in such a situation. She was not a whole person, and I don't see how she ever could be after what she had been through.

DAVID
KORESH
WAS
A
MULTIPLE
SERIAL
RAPIST
OF CHILDREN

AND A FREAKING APOCALYPITC

MONSTER

AND

THAT

WAS THE REASON

THE US JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

MADE A GODAWFUL HORRENDOUS ERROR OF JUDGEMENT.

IT WAS NOT MURDER.

Anyone who did not find that a horrendous tragedy, is not and cannot ever be called a "liberal." Liberals, true liberals, have a culture of ethical humanism, and could not, by definition, behave in such a way. The people you worked with, who behaved as you claimed, can only be called one thing.

Goddam idiots.

And this discussion is goddam idiotic.

Doc, your screaming post above is not in keeping with the standards you
have established for this board.

Yes, its your board, and yes, you are the market expert around here.

But when it comes to non-market topics, then your opinion is no more and no
less valid than that of any other poster.

I have seen you boot people from the board for less than that outburst.

You picked up on a narrow point in a discussion that was moving in a different
direction and your posts only continued to amplify that issue that wasn't the topic.

You cited two allegations of personal wrong doing by Koresh then stated:
"AND

THAT

WAS THE REASON

THE US JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

MADE A GODAWFUL HORRENDOUS ERROR OF JUDGEMENT.

IT WAS NOT MURDER."

The two allegations about Kuresh cannot possibly justify any errors of
judgement by the US Justice Dept.

Since when do we have executions before we have trial by jury?

A rose by any other name is still a rose.
Murder by any other name is still the wrongful taking of human life, i.e. murder.

And yes, here in good ole Detroit land, we had the same kinds of remarks that
the guys were posting, including "saved the gov't money."

In internet parlance, its considered quite rude to use caps and bold to outshout
everybody else. I suspect this election is really upsetting you a great deal.

rant off

Waco was mass-suicide by cop.

Koresh knew the cops would come one day. He fortified the complex. There was no way the cops would be able to take control of that complex without a lot of casualties.

The cops failed to cover their asses properly, and the right-wing propaganda pounced on that, making the cops look like aggressors.

Exactly.

Sherlock-

It's my website, and only I get to decide editorial policy, not you, or anyone else, just me. I tolerate your points of view, and I suggest you tolerate mine. If you don't like that, you know what to do. If you were not outraged by the idea that parental consent justifies child rape, then that's a problem.

Waco is not about what Suresh did or did not. Criminals do all sort of bad things every day. But should gov't do also? There are many opinions out there that claim if the gov't wanted to arrest Suresh they could have easily picked him up. But gov't chose a different path - shock & awe wasn't invented by Bush, just perfected. We were down this path for the decades. The public slowly being brainwashed to accept draconian measures when gov't lables a group as misfits.

What rubs me the wrong way about what doc writes is calling a "horendous mistake". What mistake? Every murderer was promoted after the fact. The only good thing about Jeb Bush is that he beat that ugly lizard Reno to the office. If she had been rewarded with governorship after what she did in Waco I'd just freak out. Funny thing is what she did in deporting that Cuban boy was what did her in. It's a strange world indeed.

But nothing worse than a corrupt gov't than being a gov't appologist. If it was a horrendous mistake how come we didn't see any gov't heads rolling? Because it was the plan.

Government isn't pure evil. Usually it's just pure incompetence. If you think it was part of "the plan", you are entitled to your opinion, paranoid and delusional though it may be.

As for calling me a government apologist, that's just assinine. I happen to like Janet Reno. I wasn't apologizing for her. She showed horrendous judgement. She should have been fired. I nver apologize for other people's poor judgement.

The two 'government' people most responsible for the Waco disaser were Brig. Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, a player at Ruby Ridge and subsequenly in the Abu Gharib prison mess, and Lieutenant General Boykin who made a bit of a splash with comments about our God being better than the Muslim God etc. etc and who too is also in Iraq now. The tactical side of the FBI as opposed to the negotiating side should be added as well as it was they who were chomping at the bit and under the guidand of Shoomaker and Boykin did the deed.

Janet Reno did NOT approve the agressive assault on the compound. She approved a much milder plan of slowly gassing the compound. She did allow for tactical commanders to alter the plan based upon developments. Within 7 minutes of the start of the operation the mild plan was abondoned and the disaster was on.

Reno stalled a long time approving even the mild plan she approved but as was her style she did defer to the FBI and 'experts' on the decision. Should she have called the whole thing off, calling the FBI and ATF off the site? Of course. She was however only a few weeks into the job, remember this started under Bush I, and NOBODY at the FBI or anyone ever suggested a climbdown.

While the usual suspects and even a fair number of Stoolies see Reno as some sort of monster totally responsible for the Waco disaster the real authors of the disaster, Schoomaker and Boykin have moved up by being sent to Iraq to among other things deal with religious fanatics.

'm linking to an article by David Neiwert which discusses some of the Waco story in the larger context of terrorism. His blog, essential reading on the subject of domestic terrorism of the rightest variety and most importantly I think about the nature of facism is here. http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/

The article about Waco is here. http://www.reachm.com/amstreet/archives/20...face-of-terror/

Many political appointees have circles run around them by bureaucrats pushing their own agendas. Jorma is right. Janet Reno struck me as a relatively benign individual in sensible shoes surrounded by some very unsavory individuals who escaped condemnation and indeed, much like the Iran Contra crooks, seem to have benefitted from their misdeeds. Poor Janet, she seemed like a kindly librarian plucked from some obscure little town and dropped into a political nightmare.

RIGHT MINDED SANE PERSON !

Where?