Jerusalem
And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the Holy Lamb of God
on England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic mills?
Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of Fire!
I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Til we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land
Lyrics from the group - Asia
http://www.myths.com/pub/lyrics/emersonlak....html#jerusalem
Full Version: Jerusalem
Plunger on B4 the Bell said this:
QUOTE
Without going back to re-read verbatim what I originally said with reference to the original post on this topic, I believe I said something to the effect that "it would not surprise me to learn" or "this smells like" a false flag operation...and given the timing - and the result, it does! I also said that Israel (meaning its political leadership) doesn't want peace...and I believe that to be just as accurate as every statement I've ever made about Bush and the Neocons - who I believe it's clear are all on the same team (not my team).
I make absoulutely no differentiation whatoever where race or religion or nationality is concerned. I'm equally disgusted with Palestinian, Israeli, US and any other fear breeding, war mongering evil bastards who kill innocents to further their own political, egotistical or economic interests.
I know it's never popular to mention the prospect of a flase flag operation here where Israel might be involved, but you can't really discuss US politics or wars or economics without at least considering Israel's role, and I'm just not afraid to mention it...since it's a very large part of the picture. Why were Mossad agents in Abu Ghraib Prison? Why was one form of torture rubbing an Israeli flag in the face of prisoners?
Anyone who is personally offended by the mere mention of the possibility of a false flag operation whenever there happens to be a death in the Middle East might want to re-evaluate their own personal need to be emotionally attached or detached from such possibilities. I don't get personally offended when people of other nations accuse my President of taking us to war under false pretense. He did! Why these matters get personal is beyond me. We all have choices to make about how we react to things. I attacked no one personally, yet the mention of Israel becomes personal...always.
You know me pretty well, Drano. Do you believe me to be anti any type of humanity? Do I believe that Mossad targets Israelis for death under false flag operations for political gain? Definitely. They do! They do it to Americans too, and any other nationality that benefits their political agenda. So does the CIA and any number of other covert actors around the world. These are facts.
Did it happen in this instance? I have no idea, and I never said that I knew for a fact that it did.
Am I suspicious of the timing of the event and the immediate proclamation that Israel would not attempt to do business with the newly elected leader of Palestine? Of course! Any thought of me being prejudiced or antisemetic is just ridiculous. I wouldn't even know where to start. I am absouletly prejudiced against any world leaders who can justify the death of innocents for their own evil intentions, and there are plenty of them to go around...even in Israel.
I make absoulutely no differentiation whatoever where race or religion or nationality is concerned. I'm equally disgusted with Palestinian, Israeli, US and any other fear breeding, war mongering evil bastards who kill innocents to further their own political, egotistical or economic interests.
I know it's never popular to mention the prospect of a flase flag operation here where Israel might be involved, but you can't really discuss US politics or wars or economics without at least considering Israel's role, and I'm just not afraid to mention it...since it's a very large part of the picture. Why were Mossad agents in Abu Ghraib Prison? Why was one form of torture rubbing an Israeli flag in the face of prisoners?
Anyone who is personally offended by the mere mention of the possibility of a false flag operation whenever there happens to be a death in the Middle East might want to re-evaluate their own personal need to be emotionally attached or detached from such possibilities. I don't get personally offended when people of other nations accuse my President of taking us to war under false pretense. He did! Why these matters get personal is beyond me. We all have choices to make about how we react to things. I attacked no one personally, yet the mention of Israel becomes personal...always.
You know me pretty well, Drano. Do you believe me to be anti any type of humanity? Do I believe that Mossad targets Israelis for death under false flag operations for political gain? Definitely. They do! They do it to Americans too, and any other nationality that benefits their political agenda. So does the CIA and any number of other covert actors around the world. These are facts.
Did it happen in this instance? I have no idea, and I never said that I knew for a fact that it did.
Am I suspicious of the timing of the event and the immediate proclamation that Israel would not attempt to do business with the newly elected leader of Palestine? Of course! Any thought of me being prejudiced or antisemetic is just ridiculous. I wouldn't even know where to start. I am absouletly prejudiced against any world leaders who can justify the death of innocents for their own evil intentions, and there are plenty of them to go around...even in Israel.
Drano on B4 the Bell said this:
I do not want to get into a food fight about this here. I am happy to move this to Political Stool.
My point remains: Whether one is skeptical about news media reports or not, immediately accusing Israel of killing its own citizens is a serious accusation which needs more than a "feeling" to justify making, particularly in light of the virulent terrorism which has been directed at the Israeli populace -- well-documented not only by Western media sources, but by Arab and Muslim media. Because of this history, people are going to assume that there must be evidence that made the poster believe this -- and many will NOT go to the link provided, which is the link from which I drew the quote which I included as a rebuttal to this claim.
If one makes claims which are easily shown to be false,.and which indicate a bias against the (heinously) libeled party, it makes it easy to dismiss all other claims made by that person -- no matter what the merit of the other claims may be.
If I were a newbie and had encountered a post accusing Israel of murdering its own citizens, in what was clearly a Palestinian terrorist act, I would immediately conclude that this is a hate site, and would never come here again.
I do not want to get into a food fight about this here. I am happy to move this to Political Stool.
My point remains: Whether one is skeptical about news media reports or not, immediately accusing Israel of killing its own citizens is a serious accusation which needs more than a "feeling" to justify making, particularly in light of the virulent terrorism which has been directed at the Israeli populace -- well-documented not only by Western media sources, but by Arab and Muslim media. Because of this history, people are going to assume that there must be evidence that made the poster believe this -- and many will NOT go to the link provided, which is the link from which I drew the quote which I included as a rebuttal to this claim.
If one makes claims which are easily shown to be false,.and which indicate a bias against the (heinously) libeled party, it makes it easy to dismiss all other claims made by that person -- no matter what the merit of the other claims may be.
If I were a newbie and had encountered a post accusing Israel of murdering its own citizens, in what was clearly a Palestinian terrorist act, I would immediately conclude that this is a hate site, and would never come here again.
QUOTE
I can in no way understand why someone would want to discredit their other research by posting a terrible, biased libel.
Here is a definition from Webster's Dictionary:
"a judgment or opinion before the facts are known; preconceived idea, favorable or, more usually, unfavorable. 2. A judgment or opinion held in disregard of facts that contradict it........4. suspicion, intolerance, or hatred of other races, creeds, regions, occupations, etc....."
The word is "prejudice."
Pre-judging is NOT something that I consider to be a good thing. Prejudice is so innate and often subtle that sometimes it smacks us in the face -- sometimes we discover that we still hold a prejudice subconsciously that we thought we had vanquished on the conscious level.
I do not consider it a defense of a terrible libel, to say that pre-judgement is standard operating procedure. Indeed, evidence of prejudice will taint the way that all of that person's opinions are perceived by others, no matter how well-founded those opinions may be.
Here is a definition from Webster's Dictionary:
"a judgment or opinion before the facts are known; preconceived idea, favorable or, more usually, unfavorable. 2. A judgment or opinion held in disregard of facts that contradict it........4. suspicion, intolerance, or hatred of other races, creeds, regions, occupations, etc....."
The word is "prejudice."
Pre-judging is NOT something that I consider to be a good thing. Prejudice is so innate and often subtle that sometimes it smacks us in the face -- sometimes we discover that we still hold a prejudice subconsciously that we thought we had vanquished on the conscious level.
I do not consider it a defense of a terrible libel, to say that pre-judgement is standard operating procedure. Indeed, evidence of prejudice will taint the way that all of that person's opinions are perceived by others, no matter how well-founded those opinions may be.
Plunger said:
QUOTE
Without going back to re-read verbatim what I originally said with reference to the original post on this topic, I believe I said something to the effect that "it would not surprise me to learn" or "this smells like" a false flag operation...and given the timing - and the result, it does! I also said that Israel (meaning its political leadership) doesn't want peace...and I believe that to be just as accurate as every statement I've ever made about Bush and the Neocons - who I believe it's clear are all on the same team (not my team).
I make absoulutely no differentiation whatoever where race or religion or nationality is concerned. I'm equally disgusted with Palestinian, Israeli, US and any other fear breeding, war mongering evil bastards who kill innocents to further their own political, egotistical or economic interests.
I know it's never popular to mention the prospect of a flase flag operation here where Israel might be involved, but you can't really discuss US politics or wars or economics without at least considering Israel's role, and I'm just not afraid to mention it...since it's a very large part of the picture. Why were Mossad agents in Abu Ghraib Prison? Why was one form of torture rubbing an Israeli flag in the face of prisoners?
Anyone who is personally offended by the mere mention of the possibility of a false flag operation whenever there happens to be a death in the Middle East might want to re-evaluate their own personal need to be emotionally attached or detached from such possibilities. I don't get personally offended when people of other nations accuse my President of taking us to war under false pretense. He did! Why these matters get personal is beyond me. We all have choices to make about how we react to things. I attacked no one personally, yet the mention of Israel becomes personal...always.
You know me pretty well, Drano. Do you believe me to be anti any type of humanity? Do I believe that Mossad targets Israelis for death under false flag operations for political gain? Definitely. They do! They do it to Americans too, and any other nationality that benefits their political agenda. So does the CIA and any number of other covert actors around the world. These are facts.
Did it happen in this instance? I have no idea, and I never said that I knew for a fact that it did.
Am I suspicious of the timing of the event and the immediate proclamation that Israel would not attempt to do business with the newly elected leader of Palestine? Of course! Any thought of me being prejudiced or antisemetic is just ridiculous. I wouldn't even know where to start. I am absouletly prejudiced against any world leaders who can justify the death of innocents for their own evil intentions, and there are plenty of them to go around...even in Israel.
I make absoulutely no differentiation whatoever where race or religion or nationality is concerned. I'm equally disgusted with Palestinian, Israeli, US and any other fear breeding, war mongering evil bastards who kill innocents to further their own political, egotistical or economic interests.
I know it's never popular to mention the prospect of a flase flag operation here where Israel might be involved, but you can't really discuss US politics or wars or economics without at least considering Israel's role, and I'm just not afraid to mention it...since it's a very large part of the picture. Why were Mossad agents in Abu Ghraib Prison? Why was one form of torture rubbing an Israeli flag in the face of prisoners?
Anyone who is personally offended by the mere mention of the possibility of a false flag operation whenever there happens to be a death in the Middle East might want to re-evaluate their own personal need to be emotionally attached or detached from such possibilities. I don't get personally offended when people of other nations accuse my President of taking us to war under false pretense. He did! Why these matters get personal is beyond me. We all have choices to make about how we react to things. I attacked no one personally, yet the mention of Israel becomes personal...always.
You know me pretty well, Drano. Do you believe me to be anti any type of humanity? Do I believe that Mossad targets Israelis for death under false flag operations for political gain? Definitely. They do! They do it to Americans too, and any other nationality that benefits their political agenda. So does the CIA and any number of other covert actors around the world. These are facts.
Did it happen in this instance? I have no idea, and I never said that I knew for a fact that it did.
Am I suspicious of the timing of the event and the immediate proclamation that Israel would not attempt to do business with the newly elected leader of Palestine? Of course! Any thought of me being prejudiced or antisemetic is just ridiculous. I wouldn't even know where to start. I am absouletly prejudiced against any world leaders who can justify the death of innocents for their own evil intentions, and there are plenty of them to go around...even in Israel.
Drano said this:
QUOTE
I said that I did not want to start a food fight here. I'm sorry that it has degenerated into that.
It is hard for me to imagine that a statement like this can be believed by the people here: " We know that Israel has controlled the American congress for years."
There is no possible common ground of communication if that is the premise from which one starts.
Without going into arguments on all the stuff that was posted, I find it amazing that evidently alternative explanations are not considered. As one small example:are only card-carrying Jews allowed to buy Star of David jewelry -- or is it possible that a Palestinian might wear one to support a claim that Palestinians were not responsible for a terrorist attack? If the Mossad is so powerful and smart, wouldn't they be smart enough to take off their Star of David when pretending to be Palestinians? Do you think that no Israeli officer would have noticed it, if this were a stupid soldier being commanded by a Mossad agent?
It does not seem that some people here are willing to accept the idea that there may be situations in which Israel is not at fault. Even when Israelis are killed in a terrorist attack, no one is concerned with that loss of life. Instead, Israel is blamed for it despite evidence that the obvious explanation is the true one.
I just do not understand how people who are so skeptical of everything else, are so willing to accept anything at face value, as long as it is anti-Israel.
As Brian says, we will always disagree.
I again ask the moderators to move all of this into Political Stool.
It is hard for me to imagine that a statement like this can be believed by the people here: " We know that Israel has controlled the American congress for years."
There is no possible common ground of communication if that is the premise from which one starts.
Without going into arguments on all the stuff that was posted, I find it amazing that evidently alternative explanations are not considered. As one small example:are only card-carrying Jews allowed to buy Star of David jewelry -- or is it possible that a Palestinian might wear one to support a claim that Palestinians were not responsible for a terrorist attack? If the Mossad is so powerful and smart, wouldn't they be smart enough to take off their Star of David when pretending to be Palestinians? Do you think that no Israeli officer would have noticed it, if this were a stupid soldier being commanded by a Mossad agent?
It does not seem that some people here are willing to accept the idea that there may be situations in which Israel is not at fault. Even when Israelis are killed in a terrorist attack, no one is concerned with that loss of life. Instead, Israel is blamed for it despite evidence that the obvious explanation is the true one.
I just do not understand how people who are so skeptical of everything else, are so willing to accept anything at face value, as long as it is anti-Israel.
As Brian says, we will always disagree.
I again ask the moderators to move all of this into Political Stool.
Palestinian terrorists have claimed responsibility for the attack on Israeli civilians.
As I said, Occam's Razor is correct again. The obvious perpetrators of the terrorist act were anti-Israel terrorists.
And as I also said, to say otherwise because "it smells like a false flag operation," is libel.
And as Webster's Dictionary says, a judgment made before the facts are known, based on a pre-conceived notion -- is prejudice.
As I said, Occam's Razor is correct again. The obvious perpetrators of the terrorist act were anti-Israel terrorists.
And as I also said, to say otherwise because "it smells like a false flag operation," is libel.
And as Webster's Dictionary says, a judgment made before the facts are known, based on a pre-conceived notion -- is prejudice.
This designation of "hater" to anyone rightfully suspicious is really unfair. The idea that Doc loses subscribers because of "haters" on the board is questionable. Face it, people come to the board to discuss the economy and politics is a huge part of that.
To dismiss Plunger's skepticism as based purely on feeling, ignores the fact that most attitudes are based on feeling and intuition. How many people are guided by a set of indisputable facts, drawn up by completely objective sources and signed and seconded by objective signatories?
My own take on the latest act of terrorism is that it was done by Palestinians who want Abbas to fail, so they can install a more militant leader. Sharon, has been happy to accomodate their desires. Israel is an important player in political affairs, but Bushco would be in Iraq regardless. They have dovetailing interests in the region so are, for the time being, allies. Though Sharon is wreckless in trying to establish a Greater Israel, it's a kind of aggression motivated by a legitimate paranoia. Bushco's motivations in the Middle East are driven purely by oil concerns and megalomania.
I wonder how friendly the relationship will be when Bush, Cheney and the other fundamentalist in the military, and the new CIA try to provoke Armegeddon.
For those who call all those who are critical of the Israeli govt "haters', please try to understand who your friends are. There are many who are polite to a fault, and never question the actions of the Israeli govt. but who will be the first to turn on Jews should the right wing fascists in power ever decide that's a useful tactic for them.
Plunger strikes me as a person who would be the first to defend anyone who was being persecuted in this way. Correct me if I'm wrong, Plunger.
It's a lack of understanding of conspiracy and a lack of debate on reasonable conjecture that could potentially put people at risk. It's great to debate and disagree. That's healthy. If people log on and are confused by legitimate inquiry and suspicion, then they're probably going to be equally confused by the economic dynamics described here, and will eventually log off, anyway.
Anyway, happy Martin Luther King day. ANd btw, speaking of Martin Luther. There's video disc out now called "Luther", about the original Martin Luther. It's quite interesting. It opened up a whole new arena of thought for me. You guys should check it out. (It's a bit Hollywood cornball, but still worth watching)
Drano, Occam's razor is a scientific concept, unsuitable for the political arena. Ask a lawyer how appropriate Occam's razor would be to establish guilt or innocence when trying gangsters, white collar criminals, or politicians, in a court of law.
I was going to start a new topic about what appears to be a run up to war with Iran, but this thread will do, and I'd dearly love some feedback.
It looks like Bushco is hellbent (and I mean that literally) on extending it's empire into Iran and it's a great mystery how they plan to do this. Perhaps they just want to take out nuclear installations, by air, but the way they're sabre rattling, it sounds total invasion. They clearly don't have the troops... and again, there's a lot of talk about the Iranian people embracing them, if they invade. This isn't going to happen. Is Bush counting on Ariel Sharon to make this a joint operation? Does anyone know how many active troops the Israelis have at any given time? And will the Israelis people buy it? Could this provoke a civil war in Israel, or is the liberal opposition in Israel just as compromised as the Democrats in Washington?
This is just a chess game, as far as I'm concerned, utilizing fear and racism to move chess pieces around a board. This can be applied to all sides. We will ALL be liberated when we are able to look at our govts with a very jaundiced eye, realizing that individuals who have risen to the positions they occupy within them, are pretty compromised to begin with. That varies with the inidividual ,the part of govt they're employed in, or elected to, and the times.
False flag operations are an established way of riling up foreign govts and propagandizing people. Sometimes they're carried out by elected officials and sometimes covertly by agencies outside of govt. oversight. This is where it gets dicey using terms like "Israel" at all. To me, Israel is a term used to describe the entire country and problems of semantics ensue with trying to describe any kind of underhanded behaviour, intitiated by a very few individuals, to Israel, the US, France, Britain, etc...
Never before could you differentiate so profoundly between govts and their people. Equally, never before could you differentiate so strongly between covert govts. stepping out of the shadows and legitimate, fairly elected ones.
Conspiracy theory cuts both ways. It was a false conspiracy theory that played to every knee jerk reflex and racist attitude of the Germans and allowed for the persecution of Jews in the thirties and forties. What happened to the Jews subsequently at Auschwitz and Buchenwald, etc.. was ALSO considered a conspiracy theory, until reality asserted itself, when the camps were liberated. Had the mainstream granted more legitimacy and curiosity to the claims being made, and not dismissed them as paranoid delusions, based on the "feelings" of those making the accusations, the camps may have been liberated sooner.
It is not so much conspiracy theory, but an across the board suppression of all dialogue about differrent theories that is actually harmful. The truly paranoid ones have to be exposed to reality, they fade in that atmosphere. Dismiss them, and unfortunately, in the minds of those who carry them, they're reinforced.
That being said, I think that the spirit of the times, makes it very difficult for Doc to carry these arguments on this site. I can also sympathize with Jews who see criticism of "Israel" as being part of an anti-Semitism that dates back centuries. Because, truly, some people who criticize Israel ARE motivated by racism and paranoia.
Isn't life confusing?
It looks like Bushco is hellbent (and I mean that literally) on extending it's empire into Iran and it's a great mystery how they plan to do this. Perhaps they just want to take out nuclear installations, by air, but the way they're sabre rattling, it sounds total invasion. They clearly don't have the troops... and again, there's a lot of talk about the Iranian people embracing them, if they invade. This isn't going to happen. Is Bush counting on Ariel Sharon to make this a joint operation? Does anyone know how many active troops the Israelis have at any given time? And will the Israelis people buy it? Could this provoke a civil war in Israel, or is the liberal opposition in Israel just as compromised as the Democrats in Washington?
This is just a chess game, as far as I'm concerned, utilizing fear and racism to move chess pieces around a board. This can be applied to all sides. We will ALL be liberated when we are able to look at our govts with a very jaundiced eye, realizing that individuals who have risen to the positions they occupy within them, are pretty compromised to begin with. That varies with the inidividual ,the part of govt they're employed in, or elected to, and the times.
False flag operations are an established way of riling up foreign govts and propagandizing people. Sometimes they're carried out by elected officials and sometimes covertly by agencies outside of govt. oversight. This is where it gets dicey using terms like "Israel" at all. To me, Israel is a term used to describe the entire country and problems of semantics ensue with trying to describe any kind of underhanded behaviour, intitiated by a very few individuals, to Israel, the US, France, Britain, etc...
Never before could you differentiate so profoundly between govts and their people. Equally, never before could you differentiate so strongly between covert govts. stepping out of the shadows and legitimate, fairly elected ones.
Conspiracy theory cuts both ways. It was a false conspiracy theory that played to every knee jerk reflex and racist attitude of the Germans and allowed for the persecution of Jews in the thirties and forties. What happened to the Jews subsequently at Auschwitz and Buchenwald, etc.. was ALSO considered a conspiracy theory, until reality asserted itself, when the camps were liberated. Had the mainstream granted more legitimacy and curiosity to the claims being made, and not dismissed them as paranoid delusions, based on the "feelings" of those making the accusations, the camps may have been liberated sooner.
It is not so much conspiracy theory, but an across the board suppression of all dialogue about differrent theories that is actually harmful. The truly paranoid ones have to be exposed to reality, they fade in that atmosphere. Dismiss them, and unfortunately, in the minds of those who carry them, they're reinforced.
That being said, I think that the spirit of the times, makes it very difficult for Doc to carry these arguments on this site. I can also sympathize with Jews who see criticism of "Israel" as being part of an anti-Semitism that dates back centuries. Because, truly, some people who criticize Israel ARE motivated by racism and paranoia.
Isn't life confusing?
deleted by me
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