"Is right behavior a reason for grace or a result of it?"
Sweef - Very much BOTH actually.
Full Version: Grace
| QUOTE (Darkdoc @ Jan 17 2003, 03:37 PM) |
| "Is right behavior a reason for grace or a result of it?" Sweef - Very much BOTH actually. |
Yup, a great big yin/yang in that one.
Dark & GF: Grace has no merit component wouldn't be grace then. Merit has no grace component - wouldn't be merit then. It’s either one or the other. Thinking it’s one while it is really the other is a problem religions have had since the beginning.
| QUOTE (sweefraapp @ Jan 17 2003, 02:56 PM) |
| Dark & GF: Grace has no merit component wouldn't be grace then. Merit has no grace component - wouldn't be merit then. It’s either one or the other. Thinking it’s one while it is really the other is a problem religions have had since the beginning. |
Sweef - I understand the meritless aspect of grace, but it really is both. For example, Deuteronomy makes it clear in numerous areas, with right behavior never obligating grace (merit) from God, but certainly leading to God expressing His grace to His people. It's His pleasure to do so. There is no dichotomy whatsoever between Law and Grace, nor should there ever be. They are intimately related in history and expressed completely in God's personality and behavior towards us. The answer really is both, and it doesn't detract at all from God's love or diminish His grace.
O.T. at the end of a slow day.
| QUOTE (Darkdoc @ Jan 17 2003, 03:06 PM) | ||
Sweef - I understand the meritless aspect of grace, but it really is both. For example, Deuteronomy makes it clear in numerous areas, with right behavior never obligating grace (merit) from God, but certainly leading to God expressing His grace to His people. It's His pleasure to do so. There is no dichotomy whatsoever between Law and Grace, nor should there ever be. They are intimately related in history and expressed completely in God's personality and behavior towards us. The answer really is both, and it doesn't detract at all from God's love or diminish His grace. O.T. at the end of a slow day. |
I think people who accept grace try to have right behavior
| QUOTE (BubbaBear @ Jan 17 2003, 03:11 PM) | ||||
I think people who accept grace try to have right behavior |
You are absolutely right, Bubba.
Perhaps I should say that it is both together, both at the same time.
They aren't seperable.
Dark: The minute merit enters in - God's glory exits by the same degree. A blessing from God for something done is better seen as a reward, but the source of that behavior can not be traced to that individual.
Grace (charis = joy) - an act producing happiness, a benefit bestowed on one who deserves the opposite.
Deserving grace is a difficult concept to get from Scripture imho.
Grace (charis = joy) - an act producing happiness, a benefit bestowed on one who deserves the opposite.
Deserving grace is a difficult concept to get from Scripture imho.
Sweef,
"You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today"
Takachi's signature, reproduced above, is an example of this. The power and strength to produce wealth do not come from us (it is grace), and it is given to us as a part of our covenant gift (grace)from God, but it is a covenant requiring certain defined things from God's people (right behavior). It is still all grace, though our behavior is a required part of this covenant, even though God has had no obligation to give us any of it, wealth, covenant, or otherwise. It was a pure unmerited gift, done at God's pleasure. God's glory is only magnified by those who participate in this covenant.
I really hate to be argumentative about this, please don't take it that way. I was just responding to your signature question.
"You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today"
Takachi's signature, reproduced above, is an example of this. The power and strength to produce wealth do not come from us (it is grace), and it is given to us as a part of our covenant gift (grace)from God, but it is a covenant requiring certain defined things from God's people (right behavior). It is still all grace, though our behavior is a required part of this covenant, even though God has had no obligation to give us any of it, wealth, covenant, or otherwise. It was a pure unmerited gift, done at God's pleasure. God's glory is only magnified by those who participate in this covenant.
I really hate to be argumentative about this, please don't take it that way. I was just responding to your signature question.
Some of God’s covenants (contracts) are one way – Him only. None have been made except with Israel since Abram (Abraham) – as far as I can tell. I’m willing to be shown wrong. Gentiles (like me) have no contract – just a free gift. So do Jews today – no covenant in effect – just a free gift. When covenants are in force again – oohboy, the poop will hit the fan because performance is then required.
Now…. I need to go to my daughter’s fund raiser/fish fry. I hope to check back later.
Discussing God’s purpose and will in the way we have done here is not being argumentative. I like it. I like it a lo’.
Now…. I need to go to my daughter’s fund raiser/fish fry. I hope to check back later.
Discussing God’s purpose and will in the way we have done here is not being argumentative. I like it. I like it a lo’.
Yes, all the covenants are "one way" except that they require one to say "yes" and that yes has consequences in how one walks. Not as a requirement of the grace, but as an outflowing consequence. The important focal point is not what you do, but who you are.
The reference to the various requirements of the covenant in Deuteronoomy, Leviticus, etc. are stated, except that, if you are a Bible kinda person, Paul states emphatically and unambiguously that all that body of OT law as it relates to man's requirement for grace, was given to prove that he/she couldn't do it...... and therefore grace as a free unmerited, unearned gift was necessary. Since man couldn't met the requirement, G-d had to do it Himself to justify, first Himself and then for man.
If you look at the covenant with Abram, G-d declares He will do it, but He couldn't do it without addressing the stain of rebellion by the perfect sacrifice. And since there was none worthy, He came Himself. The great irony is that those 3 years of ministry were not a demonstration of what G-d could do on earth, but a demonstration of what a real man was always intended to be.
If that all sounds like foolishness, well yes, in a way, it is. But you know.........
The reference to the various requirements of the covenant in Deuteronoomy, Leviticus, etc. are stated, except that, if you are a Bible kinda person, Paul states emphatically and unambiguously that all that body of OT law as it relates to man's requirement for grace, was given to prove that he/she couldn't do it...... and therefore grace as a free unmerited, unearned gift was necessary. Since man couldn't met the requirement, G-d had to do it Himself to justify, first Himself and then for man.
If you look at the covenant with Abram, G-d declares He will do it, but He couldn't do it without addressing the stain of rebellion by the perfect sacrifice. And since there was none worthy, He came Himself. The great irony is that those 3 years of ministry were not a demonstration of what G-d could do on earth, but a demonstration of what a real man was always intended to be.
If that all sounds like foolishness, well yes, in a way, it is. But you know.........
First some disclosures so you know what my presuppositions are – I do not believe in dispensationalism, nor do I buy the idea of an Old and New Testament (in terms of differing dispensations). I believe the Bible to be one continuous book, and that God has not changed in His approach towards or in His dealings with His people through history. After the Fall of Man, God always intended a way for our salvation which has never changed (and which was NEVER a system of law and works, but always based on faith and grace - this is how the Jews through the millennia were saved themselves). What was true in the Old Testament is true today, except in the obvious examples where it was changed by the coming of Jesus Christ – for example, His sacrifice and His propitiation for our sins, the loss of the temple and old sacrificial system, and the change in the priesthood. I think this is shown by Jesus (and the apostles) being a strong supporter of the “Old Testament” as seen in their frequent quotations of it (it was the only scripture they had, and they never threw it out as irrelevant). Any division of Old and New Testament is man-made. Although it is not particularly relevant to our current discussion, I am postmillennial and post-tribulational. And, I absolutely believe in salvation by faith, not works.
There are several covenants considered in the Bible, always between God and His people. Not only Abraham, but other major ones include those with Noah, Moses, and of course, the New Covenant (Jer 31:31, Heb 8:7-13), which is really only a modification and improvement upon the existing Abrahamic covenant. - They are each between God and man, and as far as I know, they can never be considered to be one-way covenants. They all center around the relationship - "I will be your God, and you will be my people." (Lev 26:12) They all have obligations and promises. Within the New Testament is a description of how the covenant has transferred from the Jewish nation alone to the entire church as the Gentiles have been brought in. (Actually, Gentiles could always be counted among God's people if they had faith and were willing to be circumcised and repent from their sins.) People , Jewish and Gentile, have always been saved by faith, and faith alone, both in the Old and New Testaments. Reading Heb 11 makes it clear in the "Hall of Faith" that all the Old Testament people described there were saved by faith, and it has always been as a gift of grace (Scripture states that both faith and salvation are given as gifts of grace). Covenant theology is a huge subject, very important, and very neglected in the church today - which is a real shame, because there is so much to learn about our very rich relationship with God.
But anyway, the concept of the covenant has always required certain things from both parties. All these things fall under the concept of grace, because they are all unmerited blessings - God was under no obligation to give us any of these promises and covenants, we did nothing to earn any of it. All we have ever EARNED is judgment for our sins, that is what we deserve, but in God's grace He has decided to give us a way to be saved.
It is clear that certain things are required of us though, still within the bounds of grace. Repentance and obedience are required in Scripture. Peter preached repentance at Pentecost, Paul preached it at Mars Hill, and before King Agrippa "declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." (Acts 26:20), "bear fruits in keeping with repentance" (Luk 3:8), “Unless you repent, you will all perish.” (Luk 13:5) - "God can not be mocked, a man reaps what he sows. A man who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction: the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” (Gal 6:7-8). Jesus said, “If you love me, obey my commandments. - You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. - If you keep My commandments you will continue in My love, as I have kept My Father's commandments and continue in His love.” (Various Scriptures in John, especially chap 15). Lastly, Christ said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. " (Mat 5:17).
We are called to perseverance. “You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.” (Heb 10:36). Faith and belief and repentance are all required from us as our role in the whole covenant of our salvation through Jesus Christ. And lastly, I would emphasize James as he says, ”What good is it my brothers if a man claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?” (James 2:14), for our works prove our faith to be living – I think that the works of which James speaks are an obedience to God’s commandments.
There is no question but that right behavior is an unavoidable aspect of God’s grace as His grace is administered through the covenant He has made with us. You can also make the point that right behavior is impossible for us except that God gives us the power to do so (grace) through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to us.
Perhaps one of the most emphatic Old Testament examples of the way God deals with His people is in Deuteronomy 28. Although the theme is repeated in many places in both Old and New Testament, this chapter is a sterling example of how God’s covenants have blessings and curses, promises and obligations. Again, I don’t believe that God changes, and that grace is certainly not a New Testament phenomenon. It existed then as it exists now, and these covenant promises and obligations, these blessings and curses existed both then and now. By obeying Him, we are not violating grace at all – He was the one to come to us and tell us that this was the way He wished to bless us, to offer His grace. Again, all we have ever earned and deserved is His judgment, so anything else that is given to us is unmerited and falls under the covering of grace. But instead, “even while we were yet sinners”, God gave us a promise of salvation, and many other blessings that are graceful. In addition, He also told us that we needed to obey, even going so far as to say “It is better to obey than to sacrifice.”
Let’s face it, the one thing that you CAN’T say about Christians and the church today is that they are trying TOO hard to obey God’s law and commandments. None of us can force God to do anything; He will not allow Himself to be put into that situation with us. He only deals in terms of His will and He administers His will to us through His love and His grace. Even if we wanted to make God respond to our behavior, whatever that might be, we couldn’t be effective at it. And you are very right, that IS the big difference between Christianity and all other earthly religions.
This has gotten awfully long and doesn’t even scratch the concept of how God deals with us through His covenants, but it does start the discussion between us. I, too, enjoy these discussions a lot.
Where do we go next with this?
There are several covenants considered in the Bible, always between God and His people. Not only Abraham, but other major ones include those with Noah, Moses, and of course, the New Covenant (Jer 31:31, Heb 8:7-13), which is really only a modification and improvement upon the existing Abrahamic covenant. - They are each between God and man, and as far as I know, they can never be considered to be one-way covenants. They all center around the relationship - "I will be your God, and you will be my people." (Lev 26:12) They all have obligations and promises. Within the New Testament is a description of how the covenant has transferred from the Jewish nation alone to the entire church as the Gentiles have been brought in. (Actually, Gentiles could always be counted among God's people if they had faith and were willing to be circumcised and repent from their sins.) People , Jewish and Gentile, have always been saved by faith, and faith alone, both in the Old and New Testaments. Reading Heb 11 makes it clear in the "Hall of Faith" that all the Old Testament people described there were saved by faith, and it has always been as a gift of grace (Scripture states that both faith and salvation are given as gifts of grace). Covenant theology is a huge subject, very important, and very neglected in the church today - which is a real shame, because there is so much to learn about our very rich relationship with God.
But anyway, the concept of the covenant has always required certain things from both parties. All these things fall under the concept of grace, because they are all unmerited blessings - God was under no obligation to give us any of these promises and covenants, we did nothing to earn any of it. All we have ever EARNED is judgment for our sins, that is what we deserve, but in God's grace He has decided to give us a way to be saved.
It is clear that certain things are required of us though, still within the bounds of grace. Repentance and obedience are required in Scripture. Peter preached repentance at Pentecost, Paul preached it at Mars Hill, and before King Agrippa "declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." (Acts 26:20), "bear fruits in keeping with repentance" (Luk 3:8), “Unless you repent, you will all perish.” (Luk 13:5) - "God can not be mocked, a man reaps what he sows. A man who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction: the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” (Gal 6:7-8). Jesus said, “If you love me, obey my commandments. - You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. - If you keep My commandments you will continue in My love, as I have kept My Father's commandments and continue in His love.” (Various Scriptures in John, especially chap 15). Lastly, Christ said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. " (Mat 5:17).
We are called to perseverance. “You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.” (Heb 10:36). Faith and belief and repentance are all required from us as our role in the whole covenant of our salvation through Jesus Christ. And lastly, I would emphasize James as he says, ”What good is it my brothers if a man claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?” (James 2:14), for our works prove our faith to be living – I think that the works of which James speaks are an obedience to God’s commandments.
There is no question but that right behavior is an unavoidable aspect of God’s grace as His grace is administered through the covenant He has made with us. You can also make the point that right behavior is impossible for us except that God gives us the power to do so (grace) through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to us.
Perhaps one of the most emphatic Old Testament examples of the way God deals with His people is in Deuteronomy 28. Although the theme is repeated in many places in both Old and New Testament, this chapter is a sterling example of how God’s covenants have blessings and curses, promises and obligations. Again, I don’t believe that God changes, and that grace is certainly not a New Testament phenomenon. It existed then as it exists now, and these covenant promises and obligations, these blessings and curses existed both then and now. By obeying Him, we are not violating grace at all – He was the one to come to us and tell us that this was the way He wished to bless us, to offer His grace. Again, all we have ever earned and deserved is His judgment, so anything else that is given to us is unmerited and falls under the covering of grace. But instead, “even while we were yet sinners”, God gave us a promise of salvation, and many other blessings that are graceful. In addition, He also told us that we needed to obey, even going so far as to say “It is better to obey than to sacrifice.”
Let’s face it, the one thing that you CAN’T say about Christians and the church today is that they are trying TOO hard to obey God’s law and commandments. None of us can force God to do anything; He will not allow Himself to be put into that situation with us. He only deals in terms of His will and He administers His will to us through His love and His grace. Even if we wanted to make God respond to our behavior, whatever that might be, we couldn’t be effective at it. And you are very right, that IS the big difference between Christianity and all other earthly religions.
This has gotten awfully long and doesn’t even scratch the concept of how God deals with us through His covenants, but it does start the discussion between us. I, too, enjoy these discussions a lot.
Where do we go next with this?
A freind of mine says:
Grace is what God gives us that we don't deserve
Mercy is that God doesn't give that we do deserve
Grace is what God gives us that we don't deserve
Mercy is that God doesn't give that we do deserve
Dark Doc, you and I would be in almost perfect synchronicity. What I meant by "one way" in reference to covenant is that they are impositions by a greater Lord and that the "work" of effecting them is already acomplished if we are accepting of them. That is, in accepting them, we adopt a postion under them rather than being obligated to acomplish them.
I can't believe that in all the places I might roam, that on Capitalstool, I would find someone express a distaste for dispensationalism and an advocate of a covenant view of the Bible. You are imo so right!
I'm reading Wachman Nee at the moment and will have more to inject into the discussion from him later inthe weekend.
I can't believe that in all the places I might roam, that on Capitalstool, I would find someone express a distaste for dispensationalism and an advocate of a covenant view of the Bible. You are imo so right!
I'm reading Wachman Nee at the moment and will have more to inject into the discussion from him later inthe weekend.
It's too late for a full reply. Just a few tid bits. I'll be back this week.
"... nor do I buy the idea of an Old and New Testament (in terms of differing dispensations).”
I agree in part. Matthew is a continuation of II Chron. (Malachi in the Christian Bible). There is no difference in the message except that God's Son has come to re-iterate the message and fulfill some of the "OT" prophecies concerning Himself. Christ did not come to the Gentiles (Matt 15:24) when He walked the earth. After Acts, the message greatly changed and God deals differently with man – no more “to the Jew first”. When Messiah returns, it is “to the Jew first” once more. Before Abram, the message was much different. Before Adam, God’s dealing with creation was different. After creating man and before the flood, God’s way of working with man was unique. If another word other than the much maligned “dispensation” would suit, then it can be used, but the meaning will be the same.
“After the Fall of Man, God always intended a way for our salvation which has never changed (and which was NEVER a system of law and works, but always based on faith and grace - this is how the Jews through the millennia were saved themselves).”
The plan for salvation was formed before man and before sin. It was to be by grace only – not works, not faith, not a combination. Works and faith have their place, but only in the light of grace. One has no faith but for grace.
“Not only Abraham, but other major ones include those with Noah, Moses, and of course, the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31, Heb 8:7-13),”
Covenants post Abram (including the ones with Moses and the New Covenant) were toward Israel and exclude Gentiles. The New Covenant in Jer. and Heb. Refer to “the House of David” and “the House of Judah”. It is not in effect yet (it came near, but has been “delayed” Heb.8:13).
It is very late and I must go to bed. Thanks for the food for thought. I will respond at a later time and give you folks much ammo for further volleys.
"... nor do I buy the idea of an Old and New Testament (in terms of differing dispensations).”
I agree in part. Matthew is a continuation of II Chron. (Malachi in the Christian Bible). There is no difference in the message except that God's Son has come to re-iterate the message and fulfill some of the "OT" prophecies concerning Himself. Christ did not come to the Gentiles (Matt 15:24) when He walked the earth. After Acts, the message greatly changed and God deals differently with man – no more “to the Jew first”. When Messiah returns, it is “to the Jew first” once more. Before Abram, the message was much different. Before Adam, God’s dealing with creation was different. After creating man and before the flood, God’s way of working with man was unique. If another word other than the much maligned “dispensation” would suit, then it can be used, but the meaning will be the same.
“After the Fall of Man, God always intended a way for our salvation which has never changed (and which was NEVER a system of law and works, but always based on faith and grace - this is how the Jews through the millennia were saved themselves).”
The plan for salvation was formed before man and before sin. It was to be by grace only – not works, not faith, not a combination. Works and faith have their place, but only in the light of grace. One has no faith but for grace.
“Not only Abraham, but other major ones include those with Noah, Moses, and of course, the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31, Heb 8:7-13),”
Covenants post Abram (including the ones with Moses and the New Covenant) were toward Israel and exclude Gentiles. The New Covenant in Jer. and Heb. Refer to “the House of David” and “the House of Judah”. It is not in effect yet (it came near, but has been “delayed” Heb.8:13).
It is very late and I must go to bed. Thanks for the food for thought. I will respond at a later time and give you folks much ammo for further volleys.
Takachi: There are one way covenants (needing blood) and two way ones (needing blood). What you describe is a two way covenant. God’s covenant with Abram was one way. Abram was asleep as He made it. It is only on Yahweh’s word that he would enter into the land etc. There was no possibility of failure (just as there is no possibility of failure in God’s ability or willingness to save a person). Now, we know Abram failed and had to return to the offering site each time and start again. This was necessary for teaching, but not for fulfillment. That was a done deal. Never the less, it succeeded because Yahweh had promised. BTW, parts of that promise are yet to be completely fulfilled for Abram’s descendents. Christ’s death on the cross and His blood is not directly in view here, but can be seen if looked at in a certain way.
I’ve been quite busy. More to come later.
I’ve been quite busy. More to come later.
Darkdoc: This link is a display of a view of "Gods Divine Calendar". I can't say that I have studied it enough to say that I agree with all it puts forth. I am going through the detail and corresponding commentary during my kids' basketball games so it is going to be a month or so before I'm done. It is very interesting in the truths it seems to support.
here
Where do we go from here? I think I may post a thing or two on my view of grace and its intended use by God toward His creation. I'm not sure exactly where it will take me, but I'll begin at first chance.
One thing that I believe is that God creates a person knowing full well that person's end. He will not purposefully create a human for an ultimate bad end. All the failures we see are known ahead of time by Him and must be understood in view of a larger plan for each person and for the creation as a whole. God willing, I will return to this thread soon.
here
Where do we go from here? I think I may post a thing or two on my view of grace and its intended use by God toward His creation. I'm not sure exactly where it will take me, but I'll begin at first chance.
One thing that I believe is that God creates a person knowing full well that person's end. He will not purposefully create a human for an ultimate bad end. All the failures we see are known ahead of time by Him and must be understood in view of a larger plan for each person and for the creation as a whole. God willing, I will return to this thread soon.
Sweef
"One thing that I believe is that God creates a person knowing full well that person's end. He will not purposefully create a human for an ultimate bad end. All the failures we see are known ahead of time by Him and must be understood in view of a larger plan for each person and for the creation as a whole. God willing, I will return to this thread soon."
Something that I have been trying to noodle through is the idea that G-d, out of time and space, does not view a life linearly. That is, as you suggest, knowing the whole of a life, he sees a life as a single entity, not as a linear sequence of events as we would think of it. Don't want to get into pre-destination etc. but this perspective seems to work as there is no pre anything. A life is what it is, not will be or was. Grace is poured into a life in respect to its whole not its parts.
"One thing that I believe is that God creates a person knowing full well that person's end. He will not purposefully create a human for an ultimate bad end. All the failures we see are known ahead of time by Him and must be understood in view of a larger plan for each person and for the creation as a whole. God willing, I will return to this thread soon."
Something that I have been trying to noodle through is the idea that G-d, out of time and space, does not view a life linearly. That is, as you suggest, knowing the whole of a life, he sees a life as a single entity, not as a linear sequence of events as we would think of it. Don't want to get into pre-destination etc. but this perspective seems to work as there is no pre anything. A life is what it is, not will be or was. Grace is poured into a life in respect to its whole not its parts.
Finally, a piece from me on grace. This is a reprint of an article I wrote today. I suppose I could remove the Christian emphasis, but just try to adapt it to your favorite system. I'm sure the setting will get goofed up, but it looks good when I run it through my printer.
Grace
Question:
All Christian denominations teach that salvation is by grace, but obtaining salvation differs between denominations – so how does Scripture define grace?
Answer:
All Christian groups wish to affirm that they teach salvation by grace – horrors upon any who do not teach it so. This is true even if that group’s position should be described as one of salvation being acquired some other way and not by grace. If a teaching represents salvation as not being by grace, it effectually denies it and subverts the very thing it seeks to affirm. So, for all who claim that salvation is “by grace”, there is a question: Just what do you mean by grace?
Our interest is in genuine, true grace and not in nominal, specious grace, which is “no longer grace” (cp Rom. 11:6), or which was never grace in the first place. A common definition of biblical grace is “God’s unmerited favor”. This definition does not help us as much as we might think. “Favor” is simply a close synonym of “grace” and does not give us the scriptural definition that we are seeking. Another problem comes with “unmerited” or “undeserved” since many claim that grace is “undeserved” but it is at the same time not “unconditional”. The idea is that while God is still Savior, a notion of man’s moral responsibility must somehow enter into the process. It is roundly acknowledged that while we do not deserve to be saved, it is insisted that we must also qualify to be saved. These are distinctions without a difference and were only introduced in a labored attempt to satisfy a worldly, ethical view. “Deserve”, “merit”, “qualify” all contain the common idea of eligibility. Few Christian groups see the question as parity between the intrinsic worth of man’s obedience and God’s blessings, but most see that there is a need for man to do something in order to make him eligible for salvation – a threshold (often known only to God) must be crossed. If that is so, then salvation is a reward, not a gracious gift. If not, then salvation is a gracious gift and not a reward.
When defining what grace is, “merit” or “eligibility” does not enter in. While we all understand “just deserts”, the actual position most Christian groups wish to maintain is that grace is the conditional blessing of god. When considering the ultimate issue, this is a mistaken belief. Even under the gospel of the Circumcision, where personal righteousness, endurance to the end are the nearest cause of salvation, the ultimate cause is nevertheless the grace of god, according to God’s own choice (Rom. 11:5).
“Grace, rather than being something that acts reciprocally, in response to works, is that which precludes and debars works, insofar as its own power both to initiate and to achieve is concerned.” – J. Coram [emphasis mine]
The importance of the two bold words above cannot be overly stressed. Grace will initiate. We can do nothing to make grace initiate the action – then it wouldn’t be grace would it?. Grace will achieve. We cannot do the achieving. What grace originates, grace will accomplish. There will not be one failure of grace to achieve what it has initiated. How then, does that reconcile with what is seen – people failing to believe, believing wrongly, believing and then losing faith, dying unsaved, etc.? Either the premise is wrong, or our perception of the outcome is wrong. One cannot have faith initiated by grace and end in that person not being saved. What was begun in grace, must end in grace.
This is important. Upon hearing and understanding the grace of God in truth, the word of the truth of the gospel (evangel) is bearing fruit and growing in us (Col. 1:5,6). Therefore, a correct perception of God’s grace is foundational to a correct perception of God’s evangel. Without it, the glorious truth which the evangel reveals will go largely undetected. The power grace provides will not go out and instead our frail efforts will attempt to supply it.
The burden of Paul’s ministry was both to “certify” (clearly “mark out” so as to set forth the facts) and “solemnly entreat” concerning “the evangel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24). And so should we attempt to imitate Paul toward the same end.
Perceiving the Meaning of Grace
I’ll use a literal translation as it is important to tie these together in the theme of grace (gr. charis).
“And if you are loving those loving you, what grace is that to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what grace is that to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what grace is that to you? For sinners are also lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them [think on that a minute – in God’s shoes], and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Become, then, pitiful, according [in the same way] as your Father also is pitiful” (Luke 6:32-36).
Here our Lord explains that grace is not a response to the love and goodness of others, but a gift to those that have no love or goodness toward Him. In walking this way we are imitators of God. In respect to our practical walk, only then do we become “sons of the Most High” for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. While pain and fire lie directly ahead for those ungrateful ones in the near term, the ultimate end is determined by grace since it was grace that initiated the action. We should remember not to confuse the process with the goal.
“Thus, then, in the current era also there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace. Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work” (Rom. 11:5,6).
Grace, then, is that which graciously brings joy. In simple terms, grace is that which is not out of works, which exists in order to bring joyous blessings to its beneficiaries (charis, grace - charisma, joy-effect, [the result of] grace - chara, joy,).
Grace is custom made for each individual. Grace is not partial or unjustly preferential, but it is purposeful. A grace gift that is not intended for all due to its purposefulness, necessarily excludes those for whom it is not designed. The grace of God is effective for it only exists according to God’s own intention and purpose (Eph. 1:11; Ex. 33:19; Isa. 46:10,11). When the ultimate is considered, God’s grace is the saving grace of the Almighty God (Titus 2:11, Rev. 11:17).
Consequently, then, since grace is effective, it is a causal entity. This demands the necessary and inevitable existence of its achievements. That is, grace cannot fail. If God acts in grace toward an individual to save, then that act of grace will be successful. That individual will be saved. By implication (we need another several pages to present this reality and so we will not be doing it here), then, if God does not act in grace toward an individual to save, then that individual will not be saved.
So that there is no misunderstanding on this most important point, there are times in a person’s life when it is not in God’s purpose to save. Some come to understand Christ when young and some see the light on their death bed – that is God’s timing and not an issue of a person’s wickedness or goodness. Most humans never believe in this life and so were never intended by God to believe while on earth. This makes sense when one observes history while also believing in God as almighty and desirous to save all people. No one ever wants to be saved until God saves him, then it is a most wonderful revelation of great joy and thankfulness.
We often hear of the offer of salvation – an opportunity to be saved if only it would be received. This is a misguided attempt to dress a work in the clothes of grace. Grace acts in order to bless. It does not offer to bless, but actually effects blessing – without fail. Grace always initiates out of intrinsic virtue. It may respond to need, but is not obligated to answer any extrinsic persuasion. Popular conceptions of grace, when closely examined in the difficult light of honesty, are indistinguishable from reward.
Of rewards, wages and the like, they have a prominent place in Scripture. It turns out, however, that even these are to be credited to God.
“LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us; for Thou also hast wrought all our works in
us” (Isa. 26:12).
“Our God is in the heavens: He has done whatsoever He has pleased”
(Psa. 115:3, cp Psa. 135:6).
Though He loves His creatures and provides for them ideally, He is never beholden to them.
“For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser? or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid him? Seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all; to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!” (Rom. 11:36).
“The word of the truth of the evangel…is bearing fruit and growing…[in] you”; that is, this is so, “from the day on which you hear and realize the grace of God in truth” (Col. 1:5,6).
When hearing a message of grace, we should listen carefully that the one delivering the message is speaking about true grace. If it is not true and genuine grace, then it is really nothing but a message concerned with works. If you are like me, a sigh of relief will be your response - relief that you don’t have impossible things to do. Works have their place, but in an inferior position to God’s grace. That’s how He designed it. That’s a good thing.
Sweef
4/23/03
To prepare this article, much has been used from the writings of others.
Grace
Question:
All Christian denominations teach that salvation is by grace, but obtaining salvation differs between denominations – so how does Scripture define grace?
Answer:
All Christian groups wish to affirm that they teach salvation by grace – horrors upon any who do not teach it so. This is true even if that group’s position should be described as one of salvation being acquired some other way and not by grace. If a teaching represents salvation as not being by grace, it effectually denies it and subverts the very thing it seeks to affirm. So, for all who claim that salvation is “by grace”, there is a question: Just what do you mean by grace?
Our interest is in genuine, true grace and not in nominal, specious grace, which is “no longer grace” (cp Rom. 11:6), or which was never grace in the first place. A common definition of biblical grace is “God’s unmerited favor”. This definition does not help us as much as we might think. “Favor” is simply a close synonym of “grace” and does not give us the scriptural definition that we are seeking. Another problem comes with “unmerited” or “undeserved” since many claim that grace is “undeserved” but it is at the same time not “unconditional”. The idea is that while God is still Savior, a notion of man’s moral responsibility must somehow enter into the process. It is roundly acknowledged that while we do not deserve to be saved, it is insisted that we must also qualify to be saved. These are distinctions without a difference and were only introduced in a labored attempt to satisfy a worldly, ethical view. “Deserve”, “merit”, “qualify” all contain the common idea of eligibility. Few Christian groups see the question as parity between the intrinsic worth of man’s obedience and God’s blessings, but most see that there is a need for man to do something in order to make him eligible for salvation – a threshold (often known only to God) must be crossed. If that is so, then salvation is a reward, not a gracious gift. If not, then salvation is a gracious gift and not a reward.
When defining what grace is, “merit” or “eligibility” does not enter in. While we all understand “just deserts”, the actual position most Christian groups wish to maintain is that grace is the conditional blessing of god. When considering the ultimate issue, this is a mistaken belief. Even under the gospel of the Circumcision, where personal righteousness, endurance to the end are the nearest cause of salvation, the ultimate cause is nevertheless the grace of god, according to God’s own choice (Rom. 11:5).
“Grace, rather than being something that acts reciprocally, in response to works, is that which precludes and debars works, insofar as its own power both to initiate and to achieve is concerned.” – J. Coram [emphasis mine]
The importance of the two bold words above cannot be overly stressed. Grace will initiate. We can do nothing to make grace initiate the action – then it wouldn’t be grace would it?. Grace will achieve. We cannot do the achieving. What grace originates, grace will accomplish. There will not be one failure of grace to achieve what it has initiated. How then, does that reconcile with what is seen – people failing to believe, believing wrongly, believing and then losing faith, dying unsaved, etc.? Either the premise is wrong, or our perception of the outcome is wrong. One cannot have faith initiated by grace and end in that person not being saved. What was begun in grace, must end in grace.
This is important. Upon hearing and understanding the grace of God in truth, the word of the truth of the gospel (evangel) is bearing fruit and growing in us (Col. 1:5,6). Therefore, a correct perception of God’s grace is foundational to a correct perception of God’s evangel. Without it, the glorious truth which the evangel reveals will go largely undetected. The power grace provides will not go out and instead our frail efforts will attempt to supply it.
The burden of Paul’s ministry was both to “certify” (clearly “mark out” so as to set forth the facts) and “solemnly entreat” concerning “the evangel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24). And so should we attempt to imitate Paul toward the same end.
Perceiving the Meaning of Grace
I’ll use a literal translation as it is important to tie these together in the theme of grace (gr. charis).
“And if you are loving those loving you, what grace is that to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what grace is that to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what grace is that to you? For sinners are also lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them [think on that a minute – in God’s shoes], and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Become, then, pitiful, according [in the same way] as your Father also is pitiful” (Luke 6:32-36).
Here our Lord explains that grace is not a response to the love and goodness of others, but a gift to those that have no love or goodness toward Him. In walking this way we are imitators of God. In respect to our practical walk, only then do we become “sons of the Most High” for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. While pain and fire lie directly ahead for those ungrateful ones in the near term, the ultimate end is determined by grace since it was grace that initiated the action. We should remember not to confuse the process with the goal.
“Thus, then, in the current era also there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace. Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work” (Rom. 11:5,6).
Grace, then, is that which graciously brings joy. In simple terms, grace is that which is not out of works, which exists in order to bring joyous blessings to its beneficiaries (charis, grace - charisma, joy-effect, [the result of] grace - chara, joy,).
Grace is custom made for each individual. Grace is not partial or unjustly preferential, but it is purposeful. A grace gift that is not intended for all due to its purposefulness, necessarily excludes those for whom it is not designed. The grace of God is effective for it only exists according to God’s own intention and purpose (Eph. 1:11; Ex. 33:19; Isa. 46:10,11). When the ultimate is considered, God’s grace is the saving grace of the Almighty God (Titus 2:11, Rev. 11:17).
Consequently, then, since grace is effective, it is a causal entity. This demands the necessary and inevitable existence of its achievements. That is, grace cannot fail. If God acts in grace toward an individual to save, then that act of grace will be successful. That individual will be saved. By implication (we need another several pages to present this reality and so we will not be doing it here), then, if God does not act in grace toward an individual to save, then that individual will not be saved.
So that there is no misunderstanding on this most important point, there are times in a person’s life when it is not in God’s purpose to save. Some come to understand Christ when young and some see the light on their death bed – that is God’s timing and not an issue of a person’s wickedness or goodness. Most humans never believe in this life and so were never intended by God to believe while on earth. This makes sense when one observes history while also believing in God as almighty and desirous to save all people. No one ever wants to be saved until God saves him, then it is a most wonderful revelation of great joy and thankfulness.
We often hear of the offer of salvation – an opportunity to be saved if only it would be received. This is a misguided attempt to dress a work in the clothes of grace. Grace acts in order to bless. It does not offer to bless, but actually effects blessing – without fail. Grace always initiates out of intrinsic virtue. It may respond to need, but is not obligated to answer any extrinsic persuasion. Popular conceptions of grace, when closely examined in the difficult light of honesty, are indistinguishable from reward.
Of rewards, wages and the like, they have a prominent place in Scripture. It turns out, however, that even these are to be credited to God.
“LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us; for Thou also hast wrought all our works in
us” (Isa. 26:12).
“Our God is in the heavens: He has done whatsoever He has pleased”
(Psa. 115:3, cp Psa. 135:6).
Though He loves His creatures and provides for them ideally, He is never beholden to them.
“For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser? or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid him? Seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all; to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!” (Rom. 11:36).
“The word of the truth of the evangel…is bearing fruit and growing…[in] you”; that is, this is so, “from the day on which you hear and realize the grace of God in truth” (Col. 1:5,6).
When hearing a message of grace, we should listen carefully that the one delivering the message is speaking about true grace. If it is not true and genuine grace, then it is really nothing but a message concerned with works. If you are like me, a sigh of relief will be your response - relief that you don’t have impossible things to do. Works have their place, but in an inferior position to God’s grace. That’s how He designed it. That’s a good thing.
Sweef
4/23/03
To prepare this article, much has been used from the writings of others.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.